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-   -   Abnormal cam wear question (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/981801-abnormal-cam-wear-question.html)

trond 01-09-2018 08:42 AM

What is coil bind distance?
I have checked spray bars three times the last 5-6 years and never found any plugging. I believe I may have had insufficient oil supply to heads at cold starts with 20w-50 combined by low rpm warm-up ups. Also, as said before, some of the refurbished rockers that wore out prematurely appeared to have not been riding the camlobes squarely. Having been unable to reach any conclusions on why I had issues I'll switch to synthetic engine oil and lower viscosity index and make an effort to avoid low rpm warm-up. And I will start engine wo upper valve covers and see how much of a mess that causes. Hopefully there will be oil everywhere

T77911S 01-10-2018 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trond (Post 9861059)
Correct. When cold oil pressure hits max on the gauge at approximately 50 mph in fifth. Obviously not the same when hot. What could cause oil starvation in the heads? Difficult to install spray tubes wrong and there is good oil pressure at any temperature. I could start engine with cover off and see how much oil is splashing about

you say the pressure hits MAX?
first off pressure relief should kick in and limit the pressure. may be a sign that there is something wrong in the engine itself.
50? I have 15-50 in my 930.i cant go that fast and keep my pressure below 4bar when cold. my cold driving consist of I limit my RPM to 4bar. in the south that is around 2k rpm. I drove it the other day and it was below 30, it idled at 4bar so I let it sit a little longer. I think my max pressure is 4.5bar when the relief kicks in.
V-twin, brad penn, syn, non syn, I don't care WHAT you in there. oil type is not the issue for such a short lived valve train.

have you removed the spray bars? I don't know much about them if you take them out as far as can they be put back in wrong but I would look into that.
I had a hole plug on a spray bar once, ate up the rocker and lobe. I actually ran the engine with the upper valve covers off just to see the oil come out. yea, it makes one heck of a mess.

if nothing else it sounds like a restriction of oil TO the spray bar.
could be something in a passage way in the case? oil lines?

v-twin oil. I called mobile one about it. he said NOT to use it in a car. it does not have the additives needed for a car.

I would just use synthetic. not a 0-?. amsoil is a great oil, or just use mobile 1.
I had the numbers for the ZDDP for the oils. those 2 are real close, amsoil may have a little more. I was also told after a certain point more ZDDP doe not really do you any good.

trond 01-10-2018 10:30 AM

Prv seems to open at about 4.5 bar/2000 rpm when cold. Same as yours. My wear issues were clearly not caused by plugging issues in spray bars and also i clearly have oil supply or the wear would have been much worse. Oil quality is not at fault, no lack of zddp in oils I have used. Valve lash is and has always been close to spec and never too tight. So insufficient clearances did not cause insufficient oil on lobes. So I conclude insufficient oiling at cold startup with top-heavy oil and/or bad warm-up practices and/or material/alignment issues with aftermarket cams and rockers. Or maybe not. Only thing I can think of is run a 5w-40 or maybe 10w-40 and high zddp and look at how I use the engine.

piggdekk 01-10-2018 11:20 AM

Trond,
could it be corrosion? When I lived in norway I had my ducati for one summer (april to september) and doesn't matter how I rode it, the window to check the oil level would always look foggy, and the refill oil plug full of moisture. Only a few 100s' km of autobahn cleared it. Soon after when I rode it back to Italy I checked valve play and found all rockers ruined, and there are a lot of them in a desmo engine, scheisse!!! Since then I rode the bike for another 50000km (not in norway) and rockers never showed signs of damage, I still ride the bike daily. My conclusion was that air cooled engines and cold humid climate don't really work well together.
I used 20W50 oil too, and while I was very carefull I still wonder if the damage wasn't done by the humidity in oil, either oxydation or just poor oil film at start ups.
luca

acar24 01-10-2018 02:29 PM

cam wear
 
You can check the spray bars by taking the oil line off and take a pump oil can or squeeze bottle with a nipple and a hose if you cann't get in close. put it in the fitting and pump,- the oil should squirt out the oil holes on to the cam. or fill the tube and boost it with a air hose nozzle. you dont have to run it to check. or you could have a passage or hose plugged. you should have good oil flow out the hoses just by cranking it over/not started. good luck

trond 01-10-2018 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acar24 (Post 9880318)
You can check the spray bars by taking the oil line off and take a pump oil can or squeeze bottle with a nipple and a hose if you cann't get in close. put it in the fitting and pump,- the oil should squirt out the oil holes on to the cam. or fill the tube and boost it with a air hose nozzle. you dont have to run it to check. or you could have a passage or hose plugged. you should have good oil flow out the hoses just by cranking it over/not started. good luck

Good one. Thanks. I already did the prime with oil followed by air but did not crank and check flow from disconnected hoses will do so

T77911S 01-11-2018 02:46 AM

i was thinking you are not getting FULL oil supply or if the bars have been removed they are not lined up (if possible) so the oil sprays where it needs to. perhaps the bars are turned so they don't spray where they need to.

another guess would be are the metals hardened or treated properly. (don't know what they do when they grind cams/rockers)

is it both sides that you have the problem?

trond 01-11-2018 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T77911S (Post 9880758)
i was thinking you are not getting FULL oil supply or if the bars have been removed they are not lined up (if possible) so the oil sprays where it needs to. perhaps the bars are turned so they don't spray where they need to.

another guess would be are the metals hardened or treated properly. (don't know what they do when they grind cams/rockers)

is it both sides that you have the problem?

Problem has been on both sides equally. Spray bars are aligned with a hole in the bar mating up with center pin of blind plug. It would be possible to install them up side down but then all the spray holes will point away from cam so pretty obvious. It also would possible to mix left and right bars which I guess would give incorrect spray pattern. Don't have the PET available but as far as I could see left and right sides are identical

stownsen914 01-11-2018 10:18 AM

Interesting question re: coil bind. Trond - coil bind is when the valve springs are fully compressed. You of course would not want to have a cam compressing your springs to this point because the valves would be mechanically prevented from opening all the way and would put extreme stress on the camshafts, rockers, and springs.

It seems a bit unlikely since if you were at this point, something would break in short order! But do you have an aftermarket, higher lift camshaft? I could imagine the case of getting toward the ragged edge of coil bind and causing abnormal wear that you've seen.

I built a 911 engine once using an aggressive cam grind with approximately .490" lift with stock springs. I recall being told it would be "OK" but that I'd need to check carefully for coil bind, which I did of course. With .490" lift I was close to coil bind, but with just enough buffer to pass muster.

Scott


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