K1200S: defect brakes reported, again!

[H_Kaltenbach]

Hello,

I just found reports of brake failures on new BMW K1200S motorbikes. I like to share this information with you.

(1) "ABS pump was defective and, in fact, completely quit working."

Obviously the quality of BMW servo brakes is really amazing, since this is not the first incident of defect servos on new BMW K1200S motorbikes reported at i-bmw.com. This was the second I noticed. But there was a first report:

(2) "What a surprize a buddy of mine had at BMW Motorcycles - St. Louis. While out on a demo ride the entire braking system failed."

His buddys name was none other the Ray Zimmerman Executive Director of the MOA! Meantime BMW MOTORRAD Germany confirmed a fault with the servo function on the bike in question (BMW Motorcycles of St. Louis):

"unsere Recherchen bei unserer Tochtergesellschaft in den USA haben ergeben, dass bei dem besagten Vorführmotorrad während der Probefahrt eines Kunden ein Fehler am Bremskraftverstärker aufgetreten ist,..."


(3) Bei km 18 fiel das ABS aus , die hintere Bremse hatte fast keine Wirkung,die Vorderadbremse funktionierte! ... bei km 137 zeigte plötzlich die Vorderradbremse fast keine Wirkung - ich hatte nur Glück dass ich beim Ausrollen war. ... Das rote ABS Warnsignal blinkt schnell.

In this case the complete ABS unit was replaced. These rear brakes ceased functioning after 18 Kilometers, and these front brakes ceased functioning after 137 Kilometers.

If failures happen after two or more years I think it's okay if they may deliver bad quality and you can sell your bike after that period. I definitly see the number of defects rising with time, let's say about the period of six years. Just wait and see.

How come that these brakes are obviously delivered with this kind of quality? Hey, it's about brakes, isn't it? You know how Mercedes is handeling the case of their brakes?

HK

[H_Kaltenbach]

You know how Mercedes is handeling the case of their brakes?

2005 Mercedes-Benz E-Class Recall ID from NHTSA: 05V133000

Auto Recall Date: APR 01, 2005
Vehicle Component: SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC
Estimated Vehicles Affected: 204000
2005 Mercedes-Benz E-Class Defect Summary:
ON CERTAIN VEHICLES, THE SENSOTRONIC BRAKE CONTROL (SBC) SYSTEM MAY PREMATURELY SHIFT TO THE HYDRAULIC BACK-UP FUNCTION MODE, DUE TO DETERIORATION OF THE WIRING HARNESS CONNECTION, OR DUE TO PREMATURE FAILURE OF THE HYDRAULIC PUMP.
Defect Consequence:
IN THE HYDRAULIC BACK-UP MODE, THE DRIVER HAS BRAKING POWER SUFFICIENT TO STOP THE VEHICLE, ALTHOUGH GREATER BRAKE PEDAL PRESSURE IS REQUIRED AND THE BRAKE PEDAL TRAVEL WILL BE NOTICEABLY LONGER.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL INSTALL A BRACKET AND REPLACEMENT GROUND WIRE TO THE SBC PUMP UNIT ON ALL VEHICLES. ADDITIONALLY DEALERS WILL INSPECT AND REPLACE THE SBC PUMP UNIT IN SL VEHICLES PRODUCED DURING A LIMITED PRODUCTION PERIOD. THE MANUFACTURER HAS NOT YET PROVIDED AN OWNER NOTIFICATION SCHEDULE. OWNERS MAY CONTACT MERCEDES-BENZ AT 1-800-367-6372.
Notes:MERCEDES-BENZ USA, LLC.,

[H_Kaltenbach]

Originally posted by H_Kaltenbach
2005 Mercedes-Benz E-Class Recall ID from NHTSA: 05V133000

O.K.

Several readers did not unterstand posting me this NHTSA Recall.
It's about Mercedes recalling SBC brakes. And BMW not recalling Integral Brakes. The Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles and Drivers in Flensburg/Germany has no explanation for that different acting of manufacturers. Neither do I.

Background information: Both braking systems have the same problems with SHIFTING TO THE HYDRAULIC BACK-UP FUNCTION MODE for several reasons. This mode sucks both on Mercedes cars and BMW motorbikes.

Interresting to know that both Mercedes and BMW drop their braking systems! Mercedes will not use SBC in the future, and BMW will not use CORA BB FTE in the future. BMW will instead use integrated brakes from CONTINENTAL TEVES. If these brakes have a fault, there will be no residual braking mode. But you will have the same feeling and power for the brakes (except they are unlinked and without ABS). These brakes are not power assisted on the lever, therefore the power assist cannot fail.

HK

[H_Kaltenbach]

These brakes are not power assisted on the lever, therefore the power assist cannot fail.

I question my statement:

As you know BMW drops their complex and complicated integral brakes from FTE Automotive in late 2006. They replace it with integral brakes from Continental Teves that come less complex and should be more reliable.

Officially there's no confirmation of Continental delivering the next braking system. Officially there's only known that they (BMW) are developing a new one.

But the sources were obviously insider of Continental Teves or BMW. Mayby both. At least MOTORRAD (Germany) did know about this changes in September 2004. And I do know about these changes since late September 2004. The journalist Wolfgang Zeyen was writing the article about the mess with the FTE integral brakes in detail in TOURENFAHRER (Germany) 02/2005. But he's also working for continental both in developing and as a PR-guy. You see? I suspect a lot of jounalists in Germany did know about the 'upcoming' changes. They all know each other.

According to their (Continentals) press release "with the Continental Teves integral brake system, the rider builds up pressure in the front or rear brake circuit directly by operating the lever or the pedal respectively. A pump automatically builds up pressure in the brake circuit not operated directly by the rider, taking account of the specific parameters for the motorcycle concerned and the ideal brake force distribution between the front and rear wheels."

The question remains: What happens if this pump of the second brake circuit fails?

HK

[NJAS]

This is pathetic, you can't find anyone else to talk to but yourself?

Nobobdy wants to play with Alex, now take your ball and go home

Get some help, get a life dude.

[H_Kaltenbach]

Originally posted by NJAS
Get some help ...

The German Federal Prosecutor is on this ****. Aswell as the German TV. Wait for the outcome.

Keep you posted.

HK

[racegun]

Put your name back to Alex Reis, H_Kaltenbach &
while you are at it, please tell us why you are out to get BMW

[racegun]

tell us why!

[H_Kaltenbach]

The German Federal Prosecutor is on this ****. Aswell as the German TV. Wait for the outcome.

Keep you posted.

The German press just got confirmation from the Prosecutor. You will read it in the German press soon.

Keep you posted

[Raging InfeRno]

I seriously suspect this guy is deranged. Literally. This is beyond a joke.

[taran1900]

kook
[Usenet; originally and more formally, net.kook] Term used to describe a regular poster who continually posts messages with no apparent grounding in reality. Different from a troll, which implies a sort of sly wink on the part of a poster who knows better, kooks really believe what they write, to the extent that they believe anything.

The kook trademark is paranoia and grandiosity. Kooks will often build up elaborate imaginary support structures, fake corporations and the like, and continue to act as if those things are real even after their falsity has been documented in public.

While they may appear harmless, and are usually filtered out by the other regular participants in a newsgroup of mailing list, they can still cause problems because the necessity for these measures is not immediately apparent to newcomers; there are several instances on record, for example, of journalists writing stories with quotes from kooks who caught them unaware.

An entertaining web page chronicling the activities of many notable kooks can be found at http://www.crank.net/usenet.html.

[H_Kaltenbach]

Originally posted by Raging InfeRno
I seriously suspect this guy is deranged. Literally. This is beyond a joke.

It's worse than that!

We all know about

1) the flawed, defective design (i.e. brake light switch issue, fairly common)

2) bad quality of some parts (i.e. pumps, they fail right out of the box)

At least 50% of they guys doing decision eight years ago were full of s### forcing good man in a team of developers, German engineers, to deliver this crap to the riders. I feel very sorry for the reputation of German engineers. I am German. I like to ask for forgiveness. It's a very bad hit for our reputation in the world. In addition to the crappy design there are exectuives responsible for damaging quality. These guys have to face the anger of shocked, frightened and injured riders.

I recently had a phone call. Yes, we have some riders that stopped in interesections. So what? They survived. Why? There was no traffic. Aha! Well, is it standard here in Germany that we don't have traffic? No! Aha! I will stop here – because wise guys know the consequences: If you suffer from brake failure and stop the bike in the intersection and a truck crashes in you, you are dead and the motorbike is scrap material. How do you get a readout from the computer? How do you know the computer even did notice an errror?

I am talking about a real flawed design and real bad quality. That's exactly the opinion of Dr. Robert Kahlenberg, Chief of QA at BMW Motorrad. And all editors of the major motorbike mags in Germany agree! It is obvious!

We can extend the debate: All I want to see now is responsibility of these guys forcing good man to engineer crap, and those guys who are responsible of minor quality. I want their head!

Both issues (bad design / bad quality) may bring the rider in mortal danger. Unique for BMW bikes with I-ABS III.

HK

[Moto_Guzzi]

Mr Kaltenbach,

How can you be a senior member on this forum with only 116 odd posts, or is it the millions of words you used ?

[Deans BMW]

Well he has convinced me, I guess that I will go out and burn my R1150R and R1200ST, don't want anyone harmed...you know. Evil, evil BMW Motorad.

[Rattus]

At least BMW has made an excellent effort delivering superior stopping safety with ABS, and has been a pioneer in this field. I imagine many lives have been saved by ABS over the years. Any complex system can fail - it doesnt mean that it is not worth having.