sorry - going to do it... Crush washer size and oil

[jtfoto]

What's the size of the crush washer on the oil drain plug. And (oh boy, here we go) what oil are we using these days? In my other BMWs, I used 5W-40 or 10W-50 synthetic. I used either Mobil 1 or Rotella T6 full synthetic. BUT I see BMW says 15W-50.

[Swamper]

I'm using Rotella T4 15-40 in my 1100,1150's.

[duegi]

Living in central Missouri, for climate comparison, using Rotella T6 5w-40. Have been using this stuff for years in BMW motos and cars with no problems.

Currently using T6/5w40 in a 2015 Super Tenere, 2003 Suzuki DR650, and our favorite... 2005 BMW R1100S BCR. I have no wet clutch slippage issues with the ST or the DR650.

Oil thread pile on please...
Crush washer is 16x20mm

[Swamper]

I do use the T6 in my S1000XR. But like to use dino oil in old Boxers.

[tm1100s]

So, to you owners who are using Rotella T4 or T6 - why Rotella Diesel lubricants instead of a recommended gasoline engine oil?

And one more question: for those who have had catastrophic engine failure of either the top or bottom ends, who was using a diesel oil?

[duegi]

et al,

From 50+ years of riding experience and listening to mechanics… There isn’t engine failure do to oil, there is, engine failure due to a lack of lubrication. Usually attributable to lubrication distribution issues, design errors in the lubrication system, and user neglect. Well of course excessive mileage resulting in break down of said oil can be a problem.

A chemist friend who worked for Phillips 66 years ago said dino oil is pretty much dino oil, beware the cheap stuff as it’s not as refined as middle of the road and higher end. He liked synthetics and thought they would keep getting better and better with longer life spans. Beyond that he said they were better than dino oil as they were slicker but even in the synthetics, synthetic oil is synthetic oil (both gas & diesel specific). He further said the additives in both oil types make things a bit more slick and clingy, but all the letter and acronyms after the viscosity listing title didn’t really mean all that much in the grand scheme. Basically the acronyms, additives, and titles just help to make the company more money according to what the markets will bear.

[N41EF]

Bob is the Oil Guy has a great website for oil questions. I use T6 5w-40 in my S, and in just about everything I change the oil in myself. Back in my Land Rover days the concern was high tensile shear strength which is the oil's ability to cling enough that the flat lifters wouldn't wipe the oil off the cam. I've been using T5 and T6 in everything since.

Diesel designations usually refer to the detergent package added to the oil and it's ability to maintain "trash" in solution. I look more for an A5/B5 ACEA designation on the oil.

[tm1100s]

Thanks, but both of those responses sidestep the question of why diesel oil instead of the recommended oil type and weight? I'm very familiar with the oil types, base stock and additive packages used, and Bob is the Oil Guy does have good info but a Blackstone analysis carries more weight. The days of 'my vehicle calls for 10w-40 so 15w-50 must be better' are long gone. The question remains unanswered:

Why use the diesel oil when something different is recommended?

And I'll add one more: How do you justify that the diesel oil with more additives and less actual lubricant is not accelerating an engine's end of life?

[Swamper]

The Diesel oils have the correct ratings required by the manufacture, car oils have gone to the energy efficient and usually don't have the ratings required for the Motorcycle manufactures.

[Chris Canning]

Currently changing oil on all bikes(6) fully syn in all of them, did the 1100s yesterday 10/40, the X/R is 5/40, the K1200r Sport is a book in itself , BM could not decide on what spec for years originally 10/40 but had loads of clutch issues so went 5/40, the problem being the cam chain tension would not hold the thinner oil and start up was a very noisy affair so they did a recall and fitted a newer version that did hold the thinner oil.

[jtfoto]

OK, I did it to myself including the word "oil" in a post. So, the real question of this post was what size is the crush washer??? ��

[tm1100s]

So far, Chris is the only one who can explain his choice of oils. The T4/T6 oil really makes no sense other than costing less than, let's say, the BMW 15w-50. In a gasoline engine, the higher detergent in diesel oil has a tendency to 'wash' the lubricant from the cylinder walls. Not a good thing and there's no telling when or where the effects would show up. The ZDDP argument doesn't hold either. Only the lighter weight oils, 10w-30 and lighter, have cut the ZDDP. Oils 10w-40 and higher still have high zinc/phosphorus content and there are still oils that have even more ZDDP than standard. And, you can buy the stuff a quart or more at a time.

So, other than the seat-of-the-pants method for choosing, why diesel oil?

This is a common issue. The manufacturer recommends an oil but the user believes his/her choice is better. Why?

[BikerMiker]

Originally Posted by tm1100s

The manufacturer recommends an oil but the user believes his/her choice is better. Why?

I do this on our Subaru, only because Subaru recommends 0w30 in other countries,
in our same temperature zone. Here (US), they recommend 0w20, allegedly to
squeeze as much MPG from a cold engine as possible.

An Airhead mechanic recommended to use 10w40 Rotella for a 500 mile break-ins on Airheads
but switch back to whatever you were using after that. Not sure the reasoning. That's
the only time I've heard of someone using that in a gasoline engine on purpose.
Supposedly it causes problems with catalytic convertors too.

[Swamper]

I always get the crush washers with the Oil filters when ordered so I don't know what size it is.
Washers: https://www.beemerboneyard.com/7119963252.html
Filters: https://www.beemerboneyard.com/11421460845c.html

[tm1100s]

Originally Posted by BikerMiker

I do this on our Subaru, only because Subaru recommends 0w30 in other countries,
in our same temperature zone. Here (US), they recommend 0w20, allegedly to
squeeze as much MPG from a cold engine as possible.

An Airhead mechanic recommended to use 10w40 Rotella for a 500 mile break-ins on Airheads
but switch back to whatever you were using after that. Not sure the reasoning. That's
the only time I've heard of someone using that in a gasoline engine on purpose.
Supposedly it causes problems with catalytic convertors too.

Aha, but you at least have a reasonable explanation for something different.

The rotella for break-in almost makes sense due to the high detergent additives in the diesel oil, BUT, I've never seen anything to confirm any claim that this actually makes a difference. It would support the cylinder 'wash' claim that would create some extra cylinder/ring wear supposedly to help mate the rings and cylinder.

[lkchris]

Originally Posted by jtfoto

What's the size of the crush washer on the oil drain plug. And (oh boy, here we go) what oil are we using these days? In my other BMWs, I used 5W-40 or 10W-50 synthetic. I used either Mobil 1 or Rotella T6 full synthetic. BUT I see BMW says 15W-50.

Your BMW dealer has three BMW labeled motor oils for you.

For the Airheads, there is a 20W-50 .... ? (hard to find)

For Air/Oil cooled bikes there is a 15W-50 semi synthetic

For bikes with wet clutches, there is 5W-40 full synthetic.

The latter two at least are produced in Europe by Shell using technology that creates motor oil from natural gas. Same/similar technology Shell oils are also marketed by Ducati and Ferrari.

[UberZogster]

Tm1100s,

I started using diesel oil in my vehicles years ago because the gas oils had dropped additives for emissions reasons but the diesel oil still had them. I was driving a classic car as my daily at the time and wanted to avoid cam/lifter issues which plenty of people were having and I had already dealt with twice. I found two lobes completely rounded off on initial rebuild and had a separate issue that I took the cam out for with ~5000 miles on the motor and found 4 of the 8 lobes were wearing down. That was with the recommended weight but modern gas oil.

As far as I can tell your argument against diesel oil is that it washes itself off the cylinder walls and doesn't provide lubrication? Do diesels not need or need less lubrication on the cylinders or do they still get enough because they have jets of oil sprayed on the bottom of the piston for cooling which splashes on the cylinder walls? Just trying to follow why this would be an issue for gas motors and not a diesel.

I had a autoshop teacher who used diesel oil in all his vehicles and had over 400,000 miles on his daily driver Celica without any issues. I've been sending oil to Blackstone and they haven't found anything that shows the diesel oil is doing anything detrimental in my engines.

If you want to have the "manufacture recommends an oil" argument BMW lists API SE, SF, SG, CC, and CD as acceptable oils for the R1100S. All of those are OLD standards and CC/CD are DIESEL oil. The modern BMW recommendation is JASO MA2 which all of the Rotella diesel oils are rated to meet. As for using 15w40 vs 20w50 BMW has a chart for the ambient temperature you are riding in and it shows 15w40 good up to 100F.

At the end of the day it's your bike and your engine, do what you are comfortable with. If that's only running BMW branded oil, cool. For me I change my oil every 3-5k miles depending on the vehicle and run Rotella of some sort in most. Oh I also went with T6 in my modern motorcycles because it's the easiest to find non motorcycle specific oil that isn't energy conserving.

[UberZogster]

Well I had a big response to tm1100s but I'm assuming due to low post count I got a message posts needed to be reviewed by moderators before being posted. Now I can post but the one I wrote never showed up so...

A shortened version is that I started using diesel oil around 08 in my classic cars because I was having cam issues and from what I could find the modern gas oils had dropped additives due to emissions but the diesel oils still had them. Later on I found myself maintaining around 15 vehicles and it's much easier to keep 2 or 3 types of oil on the shelf instead of 15.

If the diesel oil is cleaning itself off the cylinder walls why isn't this a problem in diesels? Lower RPM? Piston coolers spraying the cylinders as well as the bottom of the piston? Either way I know many people using diesel oil in their gas engines without an issue and I had a teacher with over 400k miles on his daily driver Celica without an issue. I send samples off to blackstone and they haven't found anything abnormal.

As for manufacture recommended oil BMW specifies API SF,SG,SH,CC,CD all of which are outdated and CC/CD are diesel ratings. There is a chart with ambient temperatures and viscosity 15w40 is rated up to 100F in these engines. The modern BMW engines ask for JASO MA2 rated oil and all the Rotella oils meet that rating. Diesel oils are also the easiest to find non motorcycle specific oil that isn't energy conserving.

At the end of the day you are maintaining your own engine and need to do what you are comfortable with. If that's running BMW oil at $18 a quart go for it. Following the recommended oil rating and weight I am comfortable running Rotella, it meets what BMW says to look at.

[tm1100s]

This whole oil issue is a matter of opinion and I surely don't take any offense at whatever turns up, and there is also no attempt to vilify anyone for those opinions. My original question is/was 'why use oil specified for diesel usage and not the recommended oils' and I've been asking that same question for years. Only got two responses here. When I ask that question, what I have in mind is maximum engine life. Towards that end, the question becomes 'what makes the user experience more valid than the R&D and recommendations from engine manufacturer'?

I can see the need to cut down the number of lubricants but the claim that 'modern gas oils had dropped additives due to emissions but the diesel oils still had them' is not completely true. Only the oils lighter than 10w-40 had dropped the ZDDP content. The heavier oils AND some selected (selected by whom?) oils advertised for flat tappet engines retained the ZDDP content. Very easy to verify with the PDS, or first hand like I did by sending in a batch of virgin oils right out of the bottle to Blackstone. Got a call from Blackstone about that. Also, you can buy the ZDDP additive in quart bottles at the local auto supply. Adding the ZDDP solves one problem and completely eliminates the issue of extra diesel additives.

"If the diesel oil is cleaning itself off the cylinder walls why isn't this a problem in diesels?' I have no idea about this, or any Celicas, but I would venture to say that the diesel fuel is providing a good amount lubrication in the cylinders and those older Celicas would probably go that distance on olive oil.

'BMW specifies API SF,SG,SH,CC,CD all of which are outdated' is probably true but older engines were matched to older ratings for the time. Sure, the new ratings are supposed to be upgraded and compatible with the older engines but the feedback I usually get suggests that's not an assumption that's in full trust, ZDDP and all, and also why we're discussing this right now. API rating? Don't even get me started on those guys. The diesel oil still has a larger additive package which also means less actual lubricant. I use the $18 BMW oils in 4 BMW bikes. My opinion is my engines will run 5, 10, 25 or 50K+ more miles. The cost may be higher but the cost difference really isn't much.

You're right, in the end it's our choice and my question is still 'why'...does choosing from a massive and colorful display of oil containers at the local auto supply replace the R&D of the engine manufacturer? I'm from that era where if 10w-30 was recommended it meant 10w-40 or 15w-50 was obviously better, and 20w-50 better yet. Sorry, no longer the case, not even between oils of the same weight. Your dialog appears to be centered on cost, and that's a valid consideration, just not from an engine life perspective.

[Swamper]

The problem as I see it is that I've never seen a BMW oil well. For all I know BMW oil is contracted from an oil company and relabeled, probably the cheapest vendor.