Data Acquisition Computer Group Buy Offer

[UberXY]

check is in the mail. thanks.

[acidburn]

Great thread, great great great.
Gonna read the manual today, printing now.
This is very exciting indeed!
Been wanting to do this for some time, just could not get around to it.
This is what these forums are all about, supporting the Professional Hobbiests.
Most excellent.

Theres just nothing like imperical data, is there.
Whit Rog and Joe there will be great tech support, this is a winner.

[roger albert]

Thanks guys. This should prove interesting, or at least informative. I'm working on feasibility of getting sourcecode and schematics over the next few workdays prior to finalizing the order. Not sure if it will work out, but a little leverage can't hurt. Plus, since I'm not waiting for all checks to come in to order, it's going on my company credit card, which, having just been dinged for year end sales tax to the govt, is a bit thin. Current plan is to finalize the order and info with the company during the first part of next week, and officially place it next Fri, one week from today (at latest) Just FYI

take care all
roger

[TLinuf]

Roger,
Tom here.
Let me know if I'm too late ......
I'd be interested in jumping on this wagon as well.
Ding me on or off-line.
Thanks,
Tom

[Lorenfb]

Since this unit's input is based on an O2 sensor's voltage, it's
not a true gas analyzer and determining an actual CO value
may be difficult. An O2 characteristic is optimized for Lamdba
equal to 1.0. Once Lambda, i.e. various CO changes, is not
equal to 1.0, it's voltage changes dramatically. Check out
this web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Graphs page.

Also, I think O2 sensors are tested only for Lambda equal
to 1.0 and not what their voltage does as Lambda varies.
Therefore, you may be able to determine when the
Lambda is 1.0, but getting accurate CO levels may be
another thing. I've been looking for a good CO tester,
but none are available for less than $2,000. This has
to indicate something.

[Lorenfb]

Additional Note:

Since most of the later bikes have an O2 sensor, most have
essentially what's provided by this tool, an O2 voltage - although
not as exotic. By using a DVM, one read the bike's O2 sensor
and basically determine a rich or lean condition when the bike
is run open loop (no O2 sensor input). Lambda equal to one is .50
volts, less than that is a lean condition and vice versa.

[brad black]

i would imagine the unit here is a wide band one. there's a few good ones come on the market recently that are well under the previous mark. the local one i referred to is only $600 or so aust.

[roger albert]

Good points Loren. But no one is calling the device a gas analyzer, or making the mistake of thinking it is the same. CO and Lambda are two different animals. I recently ran across a true gas analyzer for for about 1600 , which struck me as very cheap. So yes, _those_ are expensive. But they are not the topic of this thread.

Brad gets it right (as usual) The unit uses a Bosch wideband sensor (covers a wider range of values with linearity, and, reacts more quickly) than the sensor built in to the vehicle. I think most anyone knows the factory sensor is no good for any sort of data acquisition.

Also, notice that half the point of this system is that it logs data. And can log data from additional sensors too. Heck, it's cheaper than any DVM I know of that can log that long at that resolution.

Taken for what it IS, it still seems a very good deal. But sure, wish I could afford a 5 gas analyzer in my garage. I'm not that advanced yet.

[roger albert]

TOM,

no, it's not too late yet. I'll be out much of t he day, but will ping you this evening if I don't get around to it today.

later
roger

[Lorenfb]

The spec sheet they provide is rather limited. Even though it's a wide band O2
sensor, there's generally no spec on it's accuracy from Bosch or any other supplier
at values other than for Lambda equal to one. Obvious, the accuracy will fall off as
Lambda varies from 1.0. As I mentioned, O2 sensors are designed and optimized
for Lambda=1.0 whether it be wide band or not.

The use of this device is limited other than for a rough check of the air fuel ratio
or monitoring of it during a dyno run. For any reliable tuning effort, you'll still need
a gas analyzer.

[Lorenfb]

The wide band O2 sensor's key feature is that it provides a more
linear output around Lambda=1.0. Bosch indicates that its output
ranges from an air/fuel of 11 to >> 14.7. This linear output allows for
more precise control of an air/fuel mixture for emissions control and performance. The wide band sensor is NOT designed to produce a
calibrated output indicating the exact air/fuel ratio. This must be done
for each application. The issue then arises how accurate is the this
instrument device initially and over time?

[roger albert]

Well, any idiot can spend his time raining on parades and picking things apart instead of contributing something useful, or something that advances our understanding, or the performance of our bikes. This looks like yet another case thereof from Loren.

And again, we're stating the obvious and irrelevant. NO sensor produces an intrinsically linear output. ALL must be calibrated. The device has a routine built in, which can be invoked at anytime to freshen calibration.

Also, any good engineer or tech (as opposed to typist, or pisser/lurker) knows that the spec-sheet and the device are not one and the same. I can design a circuit to use a device completely outside of it's published range, and work well, or design one to work completely within spec range, and work poorly, if I do a poor job. Try playing with or using these devices instead of reading and typing, and you'll note more range. Not much, mind you.

It all misses the point. One _can_ get more data and, if they have the capability, make changes, or if not, at least know where the holes are in their vehicles configuration.
Whether Loren understands this or not, should not affect anyone else' ability to learn. He is correct; that more and better equipment is more and better. Genius, I tell you. Look, a Monster S is faster than my monster, and a turbo quicker than my N.A. They're better, period. But I get great service and use out of those ones I have chosen, and can easily afford. Ditto back when I used more Craftsman and less SnapOn. I was lucky enough to use cool equip in college that is radically better than the equip that even Loren is used to. There's always bigger and better. Agreed. But, lesser tools can give very useful results. Worth keeping in mind during all the semi informed ranting.

[Lorenfb]

Additional Note:

I think everyone is aware that the O2 sensor of this instrument must
be heated to exhaust temps and can't just be placed in the end of the
exhaust pipe. This requires a removal of the normal O2 sensor or
adding a new fitting, as would be the case for bikes without an O2
sensor fitting.

[Don Ro]

'Sent you another email, Roger.
.
Best,

[acidburn]

I still think a major point is:
Reasonably good data is better than no data.
Base lines are used for comparison and noteing changes.
You cannot truly understand any phenom until you are able to assign and evaluate numbers describing and representing the event, or searies of events.

I have set up many hot rods using old analog exhuast anal-izers with excellent results.
I believe this device is an excellent addition to any private hobby shop.
Who is Loren? Anyway who cares.
Roger check went out days ago,
Cant wait to see what other goodies we can add to the package.
Will call you on the Bonnevile Applications later.

[Don Ro]

Check just went out, Roger.
.
Thanks.
.
Best,

[Lorenfb]

More info for consideration:

From the Bosch Data Sheet

1. Characteristics
1.1 Electrical connection: 6 pole
Range of trim resistor 30 ... 300••••
1.2 Heater supply

- This is key -

The heater supply voltage must be controlled, so that the temperature of
the sensor is kept at a nominal temperature of approx. 750°C.

The Bosch wide band Lambda sensor output is linear from .7 to 2.4
Lambda. The ideal Lambda for max. torque is .86 (air/fuel=12.6).
Based on the ideal torque curve and its flatness around max torque,
an air/fuel ratio of 11.0 to 14.0 is adequate. Any air/fuel ratio greater
than 15 is too lean. Therefore, all one really needs a standard O2 sensor
and DVM for adequate tuning. To know the air/fuel beyond 15 or
less than 11 is a wasted effort.

[TLinuf]

Actually,
now that I'm looking around, I think I'm going to try a Gunson Gastester. It appears easier to use for multiple vehicles.
Sorry Rog, but count me out.
This will be easier for me to use on customer vehicles.
Tom

[roger albert]

Good point. And even partially correct.
The device manual points this out and mentions how to address it, even going so far as to point out that it can be difficult with single-cylinder and suggesting a way to deal with that (though I'm not sure how satisfactorily)

The doc even carefully detail power-up order.
Loren, have you read in detail about the device (or at all) or are you just having fun poking about hypothetical problems?

Also, again, if you actually understand the systems, you'd know you can get satisfactory results in the tail pipe. The primary issue is the sensor needs a 'clean' air reference. The supplied clamp addresses this to some degree

[roger albert]

> Therefore, all one really needs a standard O2 sensor
and DVM for adequate tuning. To know the air/fuel beyond 15 or
less than 11 is a wasted effort


Another semiinformed generalization. Sure, I buy it. That's why all quality systems use a wideband. Because they're not needed. So let me get the latest straight. You do need the good stuff for gas testing, but it's all an industry conspiracy when it calls for good sensors for Lambda. Anyone else feel like typing in random stuff from random data sheets. I really enjoy reading that stuff