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Ignition timing?

I did a search for timing. It seems some people advance the ignition timing for power and others retard it to solve pinging problems.

Which direction would run the risk of creating or increasing surging?

RB
Old 02-03-2004, 01:54 AM
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Thumbs up Sorry about the double post

That's easy, advance it for more power and ping. Retard it for less power and less ping. My solution would be to get a chip to advance it and richen the mixture where need be. The ping or surg or hunting as it is called is from an incorrect timing and fuel mixture. This is done so our massive 66 ci motors will quit punching holes in the ozone.
Old 02-03-2004, 02:56 AM
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Pinging and surging are different. I understand the effect of ignition timing on pinging. I do not understand how timing affects surging.

RB-still confused!
Old 02-03-2004, 11:11 AM
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You are not confused. There is no direct effect on timing vs surging.
Surging and pinging were incorrectly lumped together in an earlier post.
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Old 02-03-2004, 11:45 AM
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Ok, Ok, I see it's going to be a tuff crowd.
The surging or hunting is due from the cylinder not having the proper flow in and out at those conditions. Aka fuel mixture, timing, heat and rpm. You get a flow problem at that point. True, surging or hunting is a different creature than purely timeing, but it can still be properly dealt with. Have your pistons coated, chip it (with the right one), port your heads, there are a number of ways to correct the problem. The first check before anything else is to make sure your intakes are balanced. I have seen a major improvement in alot of bikes (not just beemers) just by sync'ing the carbs or injectors.
Old 02-03-2004, 01:00 PM
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Pistons coated?Whats all that about then?
gus
Old 02-03-2004, 02:41 PM
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Yes, a very tough crowd. Coating alone is unlikely to help much, though a small resulting increase in combustion chamber temperature could eke out a very small improvement. The real issue is that it is an inherently instable design, from a systems standpoint, with a sensor with a very large time constant compared to either side's combustion events. An oscillation ensues. The new units deal with it via dual sensors, thus a feedback loop is broken between the two cylinders (via the single lambda sensor) and independent stable states are achieved. It's a systems 101 kind of thing (though truth be told, I sucked in that coursework)

Anyway, a lean condition exacerbates the imbalance, and a richer mixture masks it, but the imbalance remains. Naturally, an outright cable imbalance introduces a direct imbalance, PLUS, the vibration. They have some commonality in cause, but are two entirely different effects.
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Old 02-03-2004, 03:55 PM
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duh ? I still don't get the part about coated pistons.
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Old 02-03-2004, 06:05 PM
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Roger, I got a headache. where do you set your timing on a 2004 s with dual plugs? (the short english version please) thankyou signed Very respectfully Dave
Old 02-03-2004, 06:18 PM
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Ok, ok.... just so I understand.... an induct would correct this problem?
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Old 02-03-2004, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shannonnunley
Ok, ok.... just so I understand.... an induct would correct this problem?
No! listen carefully!

An SJ power filter is what is needed

Some people never get it!
Old 02-03-2004, 08:21 PM
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Ok, I give.

I was just curious if there was a relationship between ignition timing and surging.

What surging is, how to cure it and home rememdies was not the question. All of that has been beaten, kicked, runover, flogged and bitten to death.

Thanks for everyone's help, sorry I brought the subject up again.

RB
Old 02-04-2004, 12:44 AM
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Funny man Shannon.

Sorry not to have been more help, but I don't see any theoretical, nor have I observed any actual relationship between surging and timing. An extremely small one I don't understand could of course exist, but if it's too small to notice...

David, I have no real twinplug experience on these. I'd go stock. You can try a bit of advance (say, 3deg) If it pings, move it back, if not, keep it. It can vary from example to example so one can't make a good blanket statement anyway .
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Old 02-04-2004, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by roger albert
Funny man Shannon.

For the record, I have a carbon fiber induct and I like it very much.
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:31 AM
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I'm taking it that coating has to do with nitrideing the pistons.I have to bite on this one,how does this fix surging and pinging?I would only ever consider coating a piston if you are doing a complete engine rebuild. The dirt bike pistons that I have used that are Nitride-ed do last longer(30%) and supposedly offer a reduction in friction.
Old 02-04-2004, 11:24 AM
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nitriding etc (which is done on the skirt) would not help.
Thermal coatings on the crown which increase CC heat retention could, albeit only a bit.
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Old 02-04-2004, 12:13 PM
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Talking

Roger, ...since timing, fuel mixture, temp., and flow don't have anything to do with surging then why does adding an extra lamda senor correct this? The last time I checked a lamda sensor reported the O2 level back to the control unit. The control unit controls timing and fuel map, no?

As far as the thermal coating. It helps to displace the heat over the entire suface and keeps it from going into the piston. That way the "donuts" are totally glazed.
Aka, duel plug design. Taking the pistons out are a cake walk on these engines.
Old 02-04-2004, 12:37 PM
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The O2 sensor allows independent control of cylinders. You don't have each cylinder getting compromised feedback (due to each cylinder's exhaust mixing/combining to give an average, but individually inaccurate, as well as late feedback signal)

I think the problem here is a logical fallacy.

Mixture can affect knock/ping
And mixture can affect surging
And timing can affect knock/ping
An the computer can control (to very limited extents) mix and timing,

THEREFORE, timing affects surging. I don't mean to be all harsh, but it's just a logical fallacy, and well as a functional/physical one. Simply not true.

It's like saying
sunlight contributes to a rainbow
and rain contributes to a rainbow,
and clouds affect sunlight
Therefore sunlight can be used to control rain.

While in some very very broad since there is a grain of truth
(it's admittedly not a great analogy) it is simply confounding influences and facts.

B may follow A
and C may follow A
but it does not stand that B follows C

I'm with you on the coating however. The heat not going into the piston is good for the piston (and oil) but it is the heat being HELD *IN* the combustion chamber that affects power and delivery.
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Old 02-04-2004, 12:53 PM
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Ok your right the sun light does not evaporate the water on earth and cause it to form little puffy things in the sky. Did you know those things weigh a couple of tons? Stupid triva from the radio. Don't short change the control of the computers , they can change timing -+ 30 degrees.
Old 02-04-2004, 01:04 PM
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