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BMW Atlanta,
Dr. Troll never really knows what he's talking about. As usual very good at spewing all over himself.
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Old 05-19-2004, 06:49 AM
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Ya know, I try to stay on the upside of things and try not to get personal, but since you started it................IDIOT.............

You read some article in some rag and that's the gosphel, because their perspective happens to agree with yours? The addition of a pipe and chip is not just about HP gains simpleton.....it is about cleaning up the throttle response to a bike that suffers greatly from the restrictions levied on the manufacturer by the EPA and other like org's in the rest of the world. My bone stock 2002 Prep was okay stock. Sounded like crap and was very lean on the bottom. With the addition of the Vandy pipe and chip it made the bike much more rideable in the lower rpm range. Not to mention totally cleaned up the throttle response. That was my motivation, not HP gains.....Like I can use or tell the difference in a 5hp gain...The bike was much more fun to ride, and didn't hesitate at all. And if you think that different pipes and chips don't make a difference, you are dumber than I think. repoe and I did side by side testing with our 2 prep's--his Tunes and a FIM, mine Vandy pipe and chip. He had more on top than I did, but mine pulled harder down low. You need to back up your assertions with data, not conjecture.

Man, just go get your K12S and ride off into the trollset, I mean sunset.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:27 AM
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Again (and I will do my best to leave the venom out of any and all posts from now on as long as someone doesn't flame me first) this is NOT, repeat NOT about DYNOMOMETER numbers. The dyno doesn't lie, but neither does it reveal the whole truth; just as one can lie convincingly by using selected bits of truth out of context, just going on dyno results can be very misleading in 'the real world'. Like I said in my original post, My US spec '99 S, with 3800mi on it when I bought it, SUCKED in stock tune. I am not claiming to be the world's best wrench, but I had two different dealerships pronounce it 'within spec as per BMW'...hogwash!!!! the thing pinged and like I said, worst of all, would STALL at random when starting out from an idle. I could work around that by launching like I would my TZ250, but that's total rubbish for a supposedly-torquey streetbike. Dr. Curve and all that agree with the 'dyno-only' approach, if dyno results were all that mattered no big-bucks race teams would bother with track testing. the world if full of optimum real-world setups that don't jibe with dyno run results. Many, many times the cumulitive changes that produce the best all-round, over-the-road rideability are nowhere near what the dyno says is 'optimum'. The dyno is a SIMULATOR; granted a very sophisticated sim, and very, very useful for empirical data, but the real bottom line, for me, anyway, is the way my scoot runs out in the real world. Perfect example is the lennies induct you so decry; It seems to not produce dyno data to support it's performance, yet over-the-road gains seem to back up it's claim. At the end of the day, if someone is sastisfied with how their machine runs, that should be sufficient. I don't take your 'us pipe-and-chip-and-induct-people-are-fools' personally, but I like the way my scoot runs and that's the bottom line. I haven't degreed my cams yet, nor CC'd the heads; there's a world of performance awaiting a careful blueprint tune; mass horsepower comes and goes in just one or two degrees of camshaft timing advancement or retardation, just to name one variation out of a myriad of possibilities, and if cam timing didn't matter, velasco, zlock, fasola, ludington, plumlee, et al would not focus so much on the seemingly-insignificant details that yield such large cumulative gains. Peace, all; but my scoot ran like year-old dog feces stock and now it's a pleasant docile, reliably-idling, non surging machine (the way it SHOULD have been from the factory)
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:45 AM
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So ?It was good I spent my extra money on a pair of Bitubos?
Old 05-19-2004, 07:49 AM
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I'll echo what's been said, but from the perspective of car-tuning, which I do have some experience with (I'm a newb with the R11S, and mine's bone stock save for the K&N)... I upgraded my old Miata with a Racing Beat intake (K&N cone filter, less restrictive), free-flow cat, advanced the timing, and added a stainless sport exhaust with mandrel-bent tubing, blah blah blah... $$$ per HP was definitely NO VALUE (claimed 10 HP gain -- if true, not worth the $800 or so total cost), but the thing revved much more freely, had better throttle response, and just sounded sweet. Still not worth the $$$, but the thing was much more driveable. Sounds like people here have sought and achieved the same thing.

My R11S has this stall-from-idle thing happening too, and it sucks. If it's the evap cannister or "restrictive" breathing, I don't know, but I want it to stop! Is the exhaust the way to quell this? Should I ask Curve???
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Old 05-19-2004, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Curve
Read the MCN article. They mention Pelican List specifically. They talk in terms of exploding the myth...........
I saw that line and thought Mr. Shaw was trying a little too hard . From my reading of all the pipe/chip posts here, I new very well that peak HP would not be the result. There are some outlandish claims, but you get used to who's post to ignore. By in large the reports on InDuct/filter/pipe/chip modes on this board seem to match the conclusions that Mr. Shaw made at the end of his article.

Besides he used the SJ inlet pipe instead of the InDuct and the bike he tested was not red.
Old 05-19-2004, 08:20 AM
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lemec....i had some strange symptoms and my bike is brand spankin new...get K&N, chip, and exhaust....get rid of cat converter and canister...if you don't see and feel the difference i'll pay for the upgrades myself...(just kidding)
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Old 05-19-2004, 08:21 AM
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Exploding Myth's indeed. Mr. Shaw's sensationalistic jargon was beneath his usual, and MCN's usual high levels. Still, the quantitative airbox pressure measurments were nicely done and of great merit. They also mirror what others have measured before. And it's a good, if incomplete and less-comprehensive than advertised article nonetheless.

Still, the conclusion was clearly that the duct and various enrichment options (including chip) offered very significant driveability and response improvements, and very moderate peak hp improvements. That squares nicely with what virtually every open minded, clear thinking and analyzing rider has noted or concluded themselves. Squares nicely with the Austin group's back-to-back, same-dyno, same-day (same hour) run of 5 different combination ran. Only one (Eron's bike) was outside of the 87 +/-1 HP range. His was 12HP up, but that included heads, plugging, intake, exhaust, cams, timing, and enrichment mods. Very extensive and not cheap, but VERY effective.

To argue pistons vs pipes seems uninformed, which I don't believe Jim is.
They both work together for the best effect. I can only conclude that Jim has an agenda, and is brighter, and possibly more reasonable than his posts show.

I note that Jim omitted the fact that the highest MCN tested peak HP DID have an enrichement device (and R259) even though that device did not happen to be a chip. It is a sign of the weak-minded, or the dogmatic-with-agenda'd, to pick and choose which facts from a given set suit your argument. I'd like to think, as a lesser of evils, that Jim belongs to the latter. The arguments as presented would however be ripped to shreds by a compentent 8th grade debate team. (or any reasoning group with many facts, and minimal preconceived motions)

I note further that Jim mentions InDucts by name, but doesn't note that that larger-flowing-product was not one tested. I yet further note that JIm does't differentiate between dyno readings and road hp. Shame on him. Glaring omissions from a learned academic. I'm glad my my 7th grade and subsequent teachers and professors, both in the engineering and language arts, set better examples for me. Perhaps when one works long enough in a purely subjective field, objectivity falls dormant. This is sad.

The airbox readings provided by Mr. Shaw are great indicators that the dyno and road readings are not likely well correlated. Kudos to him and MCN for an overall good test and article.

But, despite my many disagreements with Jim, I agree on at least one major point. Chips and Pipes and Ducts don't alone do a lot for peak HP on the Dyno, and only a little more on the road. Jim's dead right on that. If you sort the wheat from the chaff, I don't know any other posters or board members that disagree with him either. That's why it's hard to see why he's harping on the point. Perhaps because it's useful to educate the few new people who have unrealistically high expectations of chips and pipes. In that respect, Jim does the board a service. Credit where it's due I say.

I'm still bummed I missed a chance to have a beer with Jim a couple years ago, and still hope to do so in person one day. He seemed pretty cool on the phone.

Lastly, let's all try, again, to stay semi civil during all of this.
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Old 05-19-2004, 08:43 AM
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You guys should read the article for yourselves. I quote:
"The San Jose BMW Superduct reduced the vacuum in the ariox by 1.2 inches of water as compared to a stock snorkel. The Powerfilter (with K&N) reduced it another 2.7 inches of water for a total net vacuum reduction of 3.9 inches of water. This translated into an improved throttle response on our test bike and accounts for the numerous positive "seat-of-the-pants" comments we read on the R1100S Tech Forum about larger inducts in general, and the San Jose BMW Powerfilter in general."

In other words, the induct swap improved the throttle response. AFAIK, dyno's cannot measure throttle response.

Meesa long time MCN subscriber. They are by far the most brutally honest reporters of things motorcycle that I have found so far.

Naturally, YMMV.
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Old 05-19-2004, 08:45 AM
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good point. Read the article. All of it. Not just selected sentences such as Jim read. Jim, I'd be glad to throw in some cash towards some updated reading glasses. Since I'm just noticing my vision fade a bit at 40, I can imagine it must get worse over time. A mind is a terrible thing to waste - especially if mere glasses could help said mind get all the facts.
I'll offer to kick in the first 10 bucks
What's your address Jim? I'll even include a couple extra for a friendly pint on me.

take care
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Old 05-19-2004, 08:54 AM
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And the stall-at-idle is just flat fricking DANGEROUS, not just an annoyance. I almost got pasted by an inattentatively-driven SUV in that exact scenario, and after that heart-stopping close call, I vowed to do whatever it took to cure that issue. My personal observation, and one that I haven't heard too much about here, is that a good, consistent, hot spark helps ignite the too-lean OEM FI mapping. My OEM BMW coils and wires were within resistance spec when I tested them, yet wouldn't fire a spark reliably gapped over about .030, and that was as atmospheric pressure, not inside a cylinder wherethe spark energy requirements are much higher. With nology coils and wires and NON-RESISTOR plugs gapped at .045, the visible spark produced looked blue and bright enough to arc-weld by. I believe this was responsible for cleaning up the idle IN CONJUNCTION with the other cumulative changes that ameorilated the off-idle and lower-midrange lean condition, mandated by EPA. Doubters out there can observe this too-lean condition with an EGA...look at the idle co/hc and watch a condition known as 'lean misfire' the; HC needle swings back and forth as the machine hiccups ...the intermittant idle hunting that most of these do is a result of this lean misfire.
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Old 05-19-2004, 08:55 AM
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Very good input Jony.

I've always been a bit skeptical of significant improvement of power that some say these higher voltages can yield, especially and mostly when they claim it's a bunch and visible on the dyno.

I however totally agree that it is subjectively and objectively not just visible, but sometimes even obvious, on a very leanly set motor at idle.
I and a few others experimented with just that in the early days of the duc list. Britalia eventually offered a kit.

The effect is especially obvious on late model, carb'd, stock-lean-jetted HD EVO motors. (though the firing order and exhaust intake reversion make that motor much worse at idle) I once read a tech article where a stock such HD was shown to have, on average, a lean misfire once every seven revolutions, at idle. Yikes. No doubt that would have the needle swinging all over. Which gas(es) did you measure Jony?

Anyway, thanks for posting the info. Very informative.
Anyway, the same treatment helped my duc. Since I chipped the S, the idle has been enough better that I don't even normally think about it anymore (and maybe they vary a lot, as mine wasn't particularly bad to begin with)
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:04 AM
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Sounds like the Doctor is trying to justify keeping his bike stock. I, also have an unmolested 2003 prep. It runs lean but no other problems yet. I have gathered a whole bunch of tech info from this forum and plan on using them when the time comes to UPGRADE.
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:14 AM
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I was using a semi-obsolete 2-gas EGA that I bought from a yamaha shop (and it still wasn't cheap, I traded 'em a cherry XT200 straight up for it) after they upgraded to a 4-gas sun analyzer. For my purposes, HC and CO are all I care about, as, with my S, the cat is gone. the differences between .02 CO and 2.5 are incredible; ther's as you know, a corrolation between HC and co, and HC goes UP when the co is so lean there's a lean misfire (unburned hydrocarbons soar because there's a MISFIRE...too little mixture and insufficient spark to IGNITE the mixture present result in mass HC regardless of the csusal effect). My approach was multistep; enrich the mixture enough to have a sufficiently-rich mixture to combust reliably COUPLED with a mechanisim to IGNITE the mixture that's present.
the end result was what should have been, and in all honesty BMW probably COULDN'T make a machine that passed the f**ked up EPA rolling-road dyno SIMULATION that's required for US certification. Many manufacturers have come to grief trying to get their products EPA certified AND run even moderately well in the real world. The best of all possible worlds, dyno-wise, would be a rolling-road dyno, coupled with a 4-gas EGA, couple with a programmable-on-the-fly CPU, like the bucks-up teams have. Go to an AMA national, for example, and watch the big boys dial-in thier racers on the dyno roller; you'll see the EGA plugged into the headers and what they are watching on the monitor is NOT jsut power, but injectiion timing, injector bandwidth, HC, CO, and NOX, s well s specific fuel flow and the REAL measure or OVERALL efficincey, BMEP, brake mean exerted pressure; the higher BMEP, the more efficient the engine per pound of fuel burned; another byproduct of this is charastic of, all thinhgs an efficient harley engine (the best example) why do really-strong harleys always sound so loud? casue there's a bigger 'bang' going on for each combustion cycle; there IS a corrolation between efficiency, power, complete combustion per ignition cycle and pound of fuel used per work exerted. both kervin Cameron and Gordon Gennings have written on this subject extensively; I claim no expertise here over what I know has worked for me in the past, but when Yamaha first introduced the EGA to the motorcycle tech world in the early '80's (the first jap oem to do so by several years) I jumped on that bandwagon big-time as it was an impartial arbiter of what was happening in the combustion chamber (and all those early-epa-compliant UJMs were so lean stock they would barely run; I saw lean misfire every time I touched an XS11, for example, and all the carb synch's and plug changes in the world would do NO good when the idle mixture ega'd below .01% CO...as soon as I pulled the idle mixture plugs, did a careful synch, and set the CO to 3%, the thing ran perfectly, the cylinderhead temps LOWEReD by 150F measured with a spark plug temp thermocouple, cause the mixture was rich enough to both cool the combustion chamber and ignite fully with a stock ingnition system. the kart guys for years have run both EGT and cyl head temp guages and my TZ has exhaust gas guages...you can reliably tune a 4stroke with EGT. just my .02 worth, but I HAVE learned one or two things that improve my particular circumstances in 30 years of msispent youth. Your results may vary.
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Old 05-19-2004, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by roger albert
It is a sign of the weak-minded, or the dogmatic-with-agenda'd, to pick and choose which facts from a given set suit your argument. I'd like to think, as a lesser of evils, that Jim belongs to the latter. The arguments as presented would however be ripped to shreds by a compentent 8th grade debate team. (or any reasoning group with many facts, and minimal preconceived motions)

I note further that Jim mentions InDucts by name, but doesn't note that that larger-flowing-product was not one tested. I yet further note that JIm does't differentiate between dyno readings and road hp. Shame on him. Glaring omissions from a learned academic. I'm glad my my 7th grade and subsequent teachers and professors, both in the engineering and language arts, set better examples for me. Perhaps when one works long enough in a purely subjective field, objectivity falls dormant. This is sad.

amen, bruddah....
Old 05-19-2004, 10:34 AM
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I did not select anything accept the general findings of the MCN report. They used everything they could to get more HP with aftermarket goodies...........but it just could not be done. As I have always said.......real gains take real efforts. Pistons, rods, cams, ect. not the limp wrist, feel good, band aids that many of this forum continue to apply to their already very powerful bikes............sometimes adding a full one HP or so.
Old 05-19-2004, 12:20 PM
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Dr. Troll,
Go away already....
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Old 05-19-2004, 12:26 PM
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Meesathinkin the good Dr. should try riding his bike someplace besides the dyno, where the bike's reaction to throttle positions other than pinned might actually make a difference.

The differences noted by the MCN conclusions were that throttle response was improved and that overall engine response was smoother.

Here I go into the Department of Redundancy Department, but neither of these areas of improvement that MCN observed can be measured on a dyno.

These were the same things I noticed when I had a custom map made for the Power Commander I had installed on my Moto Guzzi V11 Le Mans. The peak power on the dyno showed only a small improvement, but the difference in RESPONSE was immediately noticeable when riding the motorcycle. It literally jumped out of turns with less throttle movement than before the map went in.

Peak power is not everything, unless you are drag racing or circle track racing. It's just the easiest thing to measure on a dyno.

"Fire away", he said, as he donned his flame-proof gear...
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Old 05-19-2004, 12:35 PM
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Hey Johnny;

I am wondering when we get together for a ride, Could you hook-up
O2 Sensor, I am having problems with it wanting to Stall unless it is fully warm up, And sometimes coming to a stop light it will die.
With the Cams that I installed the bike likes to idle around 750 to 950
See where it's at and adjust the fuel mixture with the Power Commander!
Also do you have any info on the Coils and wires?


Tom Braccini
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Old 05-19-2004, 12:59 PM
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yeah, sure, with some advance notice I can get my ega; it's at my buddy danco's shop but it's still mine. the website for nology is, of course, www.nology.com. nology doesn't specifically list a COIL for our specific oilhead, but I swagged it and I used the PFC-30S coil (single lead unless you have a dualspark setup) and a hotwire long enough to reach from the coil to the plug. Measure your coil's primary resistance; make sure the nology coil matches; I just don't remember offhand here what the primary resistance was, but it was 'standard' for an inductive-type coil. the difference was staggering, at least for me. Did you degree your cams to the recommended value from the manufacturer? who did the cams?
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Old 05-19-2004, 01:07 PM
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