Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > 2- BMW Forums > BMW Technical Forums > BMW R1100S / R1200S Tech Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 3.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Moderator
 
roger albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Austin, TX. USA
Posts: 11,605
Lot's of speculation there, none of it (riding ability) which has much to do with the thread's point.

I think Blake did a great job of articulating the point. Jim underestimates many people here. He's right however in that some folks drastically overestimate the power obtainable. That's their loss and in my book, Jim's right to criticize that. He's wrong to paint all the list members with such broad strokes.

It almost seems as if Jim is arguing with himself, as I'm not sure of anyone who is posting big gains.

> The MCM article is fair balanced, and correct.

I agree. I only disagree with _some_ of the conclusions you manage to glean by reading between the lines.

> happen to have already aggreed with its findings before the test was ever done, and pleased to see the results they have so helpfully pointed out.

Yes, quite helpful. You do realize however that the article very much does (Explicitly) substantiate the benefits of low restriction intakes, via the quantifiable airbox pressure readings. The article also finds improved response and moderately improved power via intake/exhaust, and mixture enrichment. (remember, the r259, not a stock mixture, made the most power)

Implicit (also via the reduced airbox vacuum) is that larger gains would be seen on the road than the dyno. Admittedly small, but still there. A group of roll on tests would have added greatly to the article, but as it stood, it was still quite good.

Again, I want to objectively and publicly partially disagree with Jim, not bash him.
I agree with much of what he says.
i.e. no big hp from the simple external bolt-ons The factory effort, though a bit mixture and flow restricted to make the DOT and TŘV happy, is a pretty damn well balanced package, and isn't easy to improve upon, certainly in regards to peak power.

Our own Austin 5 bike dyno test revealed much the same. The only bike with a big gain (12hp) was the only one with extensive mods. (Eron's, of course)

No free lunches here, but also no reason to believe nice improvements can't be made.

I think most people here are too inflamed by Jim's (and others') rhetoric to note that we agree on more than we disagree with.

Another example of a poor communications style ruining the message.
__________________
99 R11S w/ BBP, InDuct, Íhlins, PVMs, Braking, SJ-Filter, ZTech, HIDs
D675 R90Cafe R60/2 M900 SV650-SS CBR150R XR125 & CRF175 Motards


OnRoad OffRoad Cycles, Austin, TX: BMW, Ital, Suspension, Electrics
Dealer for K-Tech, JRI, GP Suspension, Penske, Íhlins, RaceTech, Elka, Wilbers, IKON & Works
www.ororcycle.com

CMRA EXPERT #841
Various Formula 5, 6 & 7 championships 2006-2012

A3, Navigator,
Old 05-19-2004, 06:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Lorenfb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 2,352
Let's all lighten up! Accept the dyno runs for what they are. Also, accept the fact
that many, as I do, enjoy spending money on their bikes. The mods do look good,
sound good, and feel good to many. Our bikes are an enjoyable part of our lives,
aren't they?

Everyone's got good points, so let's not hammer one another. So guys, let it be!
__________________
Have Fun
Loren
Systems Consulting
Automotive Electronics

'88 911 3.2
'04 GSXR1000
'01 Ducati 996
'03 BMW BCR - Gone

Last edited by Lorenfb; 05-19-2004 at 06:33 PM..
Old 05-19-2004, 06:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #62 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tallahassee, Florida, USA
Posts: 3,604
Can we agree that 1.1 HP and 2.9 ft pounds of torque is not much for the time, trouble, skint knuckles, mared paint, and sheer cost of the 'bolt-on' parts that it took to get even that little ammount?

Months ago when the subject of long rods, high pin pistons, cams and the like came up the word here was it was not needed...........just induct, chip, pipe, tech 259, and K&N.........and that would more than do the trick. I, among others pointed this out as wrong........which it is.......and suggested that only through the regular channels would real world power be added. Sure enough, the same crew that is ganging up on this issue were there to shut down comments and herd foward on a mantra of sameness.........when it comes to "what should I do to my R11S" to really get it to run.

Can these same group not be big enough to see that they were wrong as to the actual HP that they gained.........and admit that the real HP comes right from where many of us said it would. What is it with this group? Do you really care about performance of do you just want to hear more of your same thoughts repeated among youselfs?

MCN is a no BS publication and they pulled no tricks in this article. The power gains were not there. Face it.

They did a wonderful job of pointing out what few postive things they could (intake track pressure, throttle response, CO readings, ect) but the fact remained.......the most they got was 1.1 peak HP gain for all their work, money, and effort.

SUSTAINED usable power is where it at Roger, and you should know that after Eron's bike left you other guys for dumb as you stated at once after the Austin run you guys staged. He has the real mods that are needed.........and there is much more he can do as well. No anger or bad feelings here......just trying to keep the facts straight. Very little sustained power gains to be had from the mods most often touted on this list. Tell the truth.
Old 05-19-2004, 07:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BMWRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 1,011
mcn previously reported a 1/4 mile time of 11.7 and 0-60 of 3.6 ( i think ) did they post new times with those mods...i would use that to see what type of real difference there was in power gain...

Rider
__________________
2014 Shelby GT500
Throttle Body, Tune, Pulley
711RWHP 718RWTQ
Old 05-19-2004, 07:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #64 (permalink)
Talk Less, Say More
 
ckcarr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Moab Utah. Home of wierd red & orange radioactive stuff...
Posts: 12,049
Garage
I can't believe I wasted 15 minutes reading through this.
__________________
cRaIg CaRr
2000 R1100S, 2000 Dyna FXDX, 2015 rNineT. 2016 F800GS, 2016 Jeep Rubicon. 2001 Corvette, 1978 Porsche 928. Schwinn Homegrown MTB & Fastback Road Bike. 22 pairs of shoes. 44 bottles of beer.
Time Marches On: 2015 F800GS, 2010 F800GS, 2007 R1200S, 2003 Dakar, Buell 1125r, 2001 F650GS. 1999 F650. 1998 HD Sportster Sport. 2010 F150, 1995 GMC Sierra ALL GONE
Old 05-19-2004, 08:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #65 (permalink)
Living on borrowed time!
 
JonyRR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tacoma, WA, USA
Posts: 7,015
Now to really stir the pot some;
Pull the O2 sensor and put it on a shelf. Install an r259 techlusion; then get a 5-gallon jug of VP 110 octane lo-lead and add 15% nitromethane and 2% PO (Propelyne Oxide) by volume or, easier to obtain, 2 16oz cans of Klotz Nitro (nitroparrifin, methanol and a little castor oil) fill 'er up. let 'er rip...I guarantee easier wheelies and much more percieved power, at least 'till it frags and the smell is.......marvelous....hehehehehe! (I used to run that very combination in my XR200 woods bike...no one could pass me in the woods 'cause I was gassin' 'em like it was chemical warfare, which it was..)
__________________
Better a has-been than a wanna-be

'I am John Andrew Moffett of the Clan Moffat and by god I live, love, seek, fail, grieve and die as I so choose and I call no man master save me'.
Old 05-19-2004, 08:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #66 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
lennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Far south.
Posts: 2,027
To all the "lemmings".

Firstly, I must apologise for adapting a normal automotive idea to the R1100S. If I knew back in early 1999 that this would have upset the good Dr Curve I would not have ever created the product.

Secondly, Good Doctor, show me the place where the outrageous claims for power gains are made for just an InDuct and chip.

Thirdly, to list each mod done and tested individually the following achieved the 101.8 rwhp on my bike. I cannot account for the accuracy of the 2 dyno jet dynos and the Erv Kanemoto built dyno that all read within 1 hp of each other to give the result.

1. Cylinder head porting
2. Foran exhaust
3. InDuct developed and tested
4. Cams reground and tested.
5. Epicycle VariReg fuel pressure regulator.
6. Advance ignition timing.
7. Vernier cam sprockets to advance cam timing.
8. Internal exhaust welds ground out (1.8hp from 20% cross sectional area gain)

It has been stated many times that with the fitment of the correct fuel ratio mapped chip the bike will show less power on the dyno. What don't you understand about this statement. It is admission that on the dyno it reads less, but on the road is much better.

How many times do you need to be told this Doctor. Also, ride a bike set up like many have done here and tell us that it does not run better and is as pointed out the driveability is improved.

You continue to insult the "lemmings" here and report about how much bull**** this product is as you call it by name, the "InDuct".

You yourself have admitted to modifying a BMW with a snorkel that protruded from the front of the bike that brought fresh cold air into the airbox for use with high speed runs.

I do not dispute that good pistons either large bore or high compression do not give a good result. I do state that there is an alternative for the warranty conscious in the world.

Again, whether it is I or anyone else who would develop non Dr approved products, your continued rantings and attacks only lessen your creditability here. I have respect for your achievements in the past even using the "snorkel" concept, but it is hard to respect you with your constant attacks on a product proven to improve the driveability of the much loved R1100S.

Torque gets you off the line and horsepower carries you to top speed. Without torque, you will not accelerate quickly and all my tuning is about increasing midrange torque and not outright horsepower. I hope you can intelligently respond to what I have wriiten and not ignore what I have to say as you always do.
__________________
Lennie

www.boxer-performance.com

1998 R1100S Yellow is the best (now departed from my life)

Last edited by lennie; 05-20-2004 at 12:07 AM..
Old 05-19-2004, 11:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #67 (permalink)
Registered User
 
arbik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 438
Send a message via AIM to arbik
...just a thought

...So I've been thinking about this

Curves (the torque & HP kind) cannot be analyzed just by looking at the peaks. You have to study the whole curve.

However, a meaningfull way to simplify this analysis can be had, but looking at the area under the curve.
If you calculate the area under the curves, I'm willing to bet you'll see the improvements these "bolt-ons" give.

-arbi
__________________
****************
2004 R1100S-BCP - RIP (2-1-04)
2004 R1150R Rockster; NASA approved
Old 05-20-2004, 12:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #68 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 13
All,

Dr. Curve is right that in order to gain substantially more RWHP, the displacement has to be increased. However I do take exception that just because the dyno only registered a (very) modest HP increase means that some of the modifications did not work. To the contrary, the objective results of the article conclude that:

1. The combination of a larger snorkel and a less restrictive air filter significantly reduce the air pressure in the air box thereby allowing for more air to be available under hard acceleration/throttle; and

2. The Laser exhaust (and this is something that no other exhaust has been able to do) flattened out the 6,000 rpm flat spot thereby improving the useable torque/HP.

In brief, the useable torque range is flatter and because more air is available on demand, the bike is more responsive. Robert Foster at FosterRAD is absolutely correct in this regard (BTW, this guys knows of what he speaks...he's done more dyno testing than all of us together). The dyno does not reveal everything. I too would like to extend an offer to Dr. Curve (or any naysayer) who cares to ride my bike...I live in Virginia outside of WDC.

I know this won't settle anything since I essentially wrote the same conclusions in my article, but I just wanted to restate some of the facts for those (foolish) people who don't subscribe to MCN...sorry I couldn't resist. BTW, I am trying to get approval to release the article and post it here for those that don't subscibe.

Regards,
Bill Shaw
armoredveh@aol.com
Old 05-20-2004, 02:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #69 (permalink)
Registered User
 
lennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Far south.
Posts: 2,027
Arbik,

You hit the nail on the head. If the whole of the curve ('scuse the pun) for hp and torque are analysed, there are significant gains. As stated many many times before, "peak hp is less relevant than the raising of the curve overall". I have posted my graphs in the past and shown significant gains in many areas for both hp and torque. The most notable is at the rev limiter at 8350 rpms where my bike has around 19 more hp than a stock bike. This helped by getting more air in with less restriction.

Cams, pistons and any other internal bits matched will give good gains and has been proven by thousands of engine builders the world over. The problem is this goes against at least 90% of most BMW owners wishes as it affects warranty. BMWs are known for longevity and the warranty is a big issue.

My changes and the results are not the only way to do it and not being claimed as the best either. But most people who add a less restrictive intake get the big "smile on the dial factor" as the end result.

Curve,

You issue another challenge to ride on familiar roads to you and you will kick butt on your stock 'S'. I have ridden with people on unfamiliar roads and keep a good pace. Not the fastest in the world but a respectable pace none the less. Maybe a challenge for you to bring your stocker 'down under' for many types of riding on both familiar and unfamiliar roads for me and even some track time. This is a ludicrous challenge from my point of view as yours is for anyone else.

Get over it, get on with your life, and let people enjoy spending their money however the hell they want. If you will not go and ride a tuned 'S' and enjoy the benefits, and the really are there, then get off the "spend your money on invasive engine mods" soap box and leave it alone. By continuing to bring the subject up, it only gets in peoples faces and makes more people aware of the benefits.

If I still lived in Richmond, VA, I would gladly ride down to your neck of the woods and take up your challenge and forget about my 20 to 30% margin of error and have some fun with you.
__________________
Lennie

www.boxer-performance.com

1998 R1100S Yellow is the best (now departed from my life)
Old 05-20-2004, 03:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #70 (permalink)
Registered User
 
lennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Far south.
Posts: 2,027
By the way, I just glanced through an Aussie bike mag with a 500 rwhp turboed Hyabusa. The guy runs faster times at the drags with it dialled in at 240 rwhp.

To quote him, "I feel safer with the rear wheel spinning than when it hooks up and gets traction". Awesome amount of power and here we are disputing 2 or 3 rwhp. Gotter get me a new perspective on life.

Oh, by the way, his answer when he was asked why he did it and got the 500. "I just got carried away and could not stop myself".

Why do I do things ? Because they can be done. The journey is more interesting than the destination sometimes.

But heck, I am just a boy from down under who never grew up. Seems there are a whole lot more of us down here.
__________________
Lennie

www.boxer-performance.com

1998 R1100S Yellow is the best (now departed from my life)
Old 05-20-2004, 03:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #71 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tallahassee, Florida, USA
Posts: 3,604
Thanks for the post Bill. While it true that the products you tested were all well made, fit well, and lighter..........the bottom line is that a sustained increase in power to the Rear Wheel........was not a result your testing found. Indeed the max you printed in the MCN is less than a 1.3 % gain.
As stated in the article you, and many others, had been taken (very taken) by the wild claims so many had made concerning the mods touted on this forum, and I am glad your efforts at MCN showed these "touts" for what they were and are...........overly exaggerated. "Mythbusters" was a wonderful to subtitle the section on the Dyno runs and what a experienced person you were able to secure to conduct the test.
When you say above, that displacement "must be increased" to improve RWHP, this statement is essentially wrong...........because as you know, a piston switch to Higher Compression while leaving all other things stock.......will add more useable RWHP than all the "bolt-on" mods did. Even a simple change of cams in a otherwise stock bike will add more than the tested mods did.
While the torque range is flatter in one small area, and the throttles suck with more ease, and the bike is lighter..........a sustained increase in power to the RW (other than about 1.3% is not much for the money spent, as you pointed out.
Another thing the article pointed out (and not discussed much here) was that many of the combo touted on this forum actually DECREASE THE RWHP
Old 05-20-2004, 04:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #72 (permalink)
 
PEP PEP is offline
Registered User
 
PEP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: The Alps of Texas
Posts: 220
Hey, Doc!...



First of all, I always remove the stock exhausts from any BMW I buy... But my primary motivation for that is weight savings... Better sound is cool, and less backpressure is cooler, but it's really a weight savings thing for me...

Second, I also put a K&N air filter in any BMW I buy, because oiled filters work better [Which is why dirt bikes use them], and if you get a freer flowing exhaust, it's a good idea to free up the intake as well [Helps to keep the valve temps happy]...

Third, I removed the evap can from my RS, but just because BMW hung it on the side of the bike, and it was ugly as sin... The LT's is under where the topcase sits, so I left it... Out of sight, out of mind...

Fourth, I rode the very first K1200RS on the planet that had the prototype Rhine West chip in it [No rev limiter ]... Yes, it had a groovy smooth throttle response, and the idle was dead solid perfect [But I don't let my bikes idle anyway, except at stoplights... I turn them off], but I don't recall that HP was what we were looking for... BMW has to contend with the EPA, so their fuel maps are what their fuel maps are... They can only emit so much... As a result, throttle response is not what it could be... That being said, I never got one, because I was always perfectly happy with how mine worked [Knowing how to sync the TB's properly helps ]...

Finally, MCN and the good Doctor are right... You might like how your bikes "work" with the pipe/chip/induct mods, but if you want significant horsepower gains, you have to get inside the motor... And don't give me this "void the warranty" crud... Who hasn't gone over the warranty mileage on their BMW within the first couple of years? [My LT was out of warranty within 18 months]... After three years, it's gone anyway, right?... So, what are you waiting for?...

I've decided I want to set up a really powerfull oilhead motor [That's still reliable], so I bought a spare just for that purpose... We're going to take it completely apart, balance and blueprint it, port and polish the heads, dual spark 'em, get the correct cams, add a second oil cooler, make the throttle bodies twin injector with adjustable fuel mapping, and turbo and intercool it... THAT'S how you get really good HP and torque gains!...

Notice I didn't mention an aftermarket exhaust...

__________________
I'm not Dr, Curve... I have a Masters degree...
R1100RS/GS/S "Lazarus"
K1200LT/RS "Leviathan"
http://homepage.mac.com/pep27/PhotoAlbum1.html
Old 05-20-2004, 04:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #73 (permalink)
Moderator
 
roger albert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Austin, TX. USA
Posts: 11,605
Thanks for the post Bill. I'm sure the non subscribers to MCN would appreciate it. I too dont' understand why anyone wouldn't already have a sub though.

As for Jim, I still don't see where he's arguing with himself. Nor do I understand Bill's perceived myths on the list. I see very very very few outlandish claims for cheap and significant HP improvements, and the ones that are made are routinely dismissed. I don't know if claiming there are ridiculous claims supposedly makes for more interesting reading or what. Jim seems to think so, and I don't know enough about Bill (other than seeing articles and posts over the years -- all good by the way) to know what his reasoning is in this respect.
__________________
99 R11S w/ BBP, InDuct, Íhlins, PVMs, Braking, SJ-Filter, ZTech, HIDs
D675 R90Cafe R60/2 M900 SV650-SS CBR150R XR125 & CRF175 Motards


OnRoad OffRoad Cycles, Austin, TX: BMW, Ital, Suspension, Electrics
Dealer for K-Tech, JRI, GP Suspension, Penske, Íhlins, RaceTech, Elka, Wilbers, IKON & Works
www.ororcycle.com

CMRA EXPERT #841
Various Formula 5, 6 & 7 championships 2006-2012

A3, Navigator,
Old 05-20-2004, 04:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #74 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BMW Atlanta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Marietta, GA USA
Posts: 2,040
Send a message via AIM to BMW Atlanta Send a message via Yahoo to BMW Atlanta
Well now Curve,............I didnt say anything about me leaving you in the dust,......I'm showing some respect(for my elders, lol) but since you went there. I wouldnt need to go up to N GA mountains 4 days prior to "practice" my riding skill as you so eloquently put it in your own thread not even a month ago cause its MY BACKYARD!!!!!!! As for how you ride,.......how about Bob Reynolds and I show you how to lead,.......cause I hear you're really great at following and mimicking us GA boys around the curves. I am not proclaiming to kick your ass in the mountains,.........but I do know my bike will kick your bikes ass PERIOD hahahahaha

And I can have the cost versus outcome argument cause I was able to procure some of these items at little to no charge, just right place right time. If a guy has patience and an Ebay account, he can do most of these mods at almost a 1/3 of their retail value, better yet if youre involved in Boxer Cup or give your life to the family business you may get a few good opportunities yourself.

As for the Blue Ridge 500 3 years ago,..............what happened in Alpharetta?????? care to eloborate??????? and you DO know what I am talking about. So if you want to take this personal,.....go for it. But I think its funny as hell, I been rolling on the floor this morning. Besides I know youre green with envy as I will be riding a new K1200S before you ever get to see one in person and to top it off I think I might even get onto Nurbergring with one,...........damn life is GOOD!!!!!!!!!!Of course I could just be dreaming on that account,........or maybe I'm not
__________________
Bobby
BMW Ducati & Husqvarna of Atlanta
06 HP2 SM, Akra Ti, RapidBike3,

Last edited by BMW Atlanta; 05-20-2004 at 06:17 AM..
Old 05-20-2004, 05:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #75 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BMW Atlanta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Marietta, GA USA
Posts: 2,040
Send a message via AIM to BMW Atlanta Send a message via Yahoo to BMW Atlanta
on that note,................a Turbo is a bolt on and is the most efficient power adder you can find. I would rather do a turbo then put high compression pistons but the cost is prohibitive as well as the air cooling aspect to make it reliable and go like hell
__________________
Bobby
BMW Ducati & Husqvarna of Atlanta
06 HP2 SM, Akra Ti, RapidBike3,

Last edited by BMW Atlanta; 05-20-2004 at 05:46 AM..
Old 05-20-2004, 05:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #76 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BMW Atlanta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Marietta, GA USA
Posts: 2,040
Send a message via AIM to BMW Atlanta Send a message via Yahoo to BMW Atlanta
by the way,..............there are still a couple of openings for the MITM Barber track day Friday July 2nd for any Talkers,...........I mean takers
__________________
Bobby
BMW Ducati & Husqvarna of Atlanta
06 HP2 SM, Akra Ti, RapidBike3,
Old 05-20-2004, 05:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #77 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 13
Dr. Curve,

PEP stated it best: "...if you want significant horsepower gains, you have to get inside the motor..." I think BMW engineers did a great job of maximizing the available HP/Torque from the stock engine (even though it runs lean and has a restrictive air intake and exhaust system). However, that is not to say there isn't room for improvement to be had from a stock engine...even if the dyno only shows marginal gains. The modifications I made addressed the factory's shortcomings by reducing the vacuum in the airbox, making a near ideal air/fuel mixture and flatter HP/Torque curves...and yes, reducing the weight. The concomitant result is a more responsive motorcycle.

I'm not an expert in this regard. But I think you, Robert Forster and Bobby Wooldridge would agree that making any modification to an engine (air intake, fuel delivery, high compression pistons, exhaust, etc) will affect performance in some way. And as you aptly pointed out, sometimes the change is for the worse. That's why I feel it's important for everyone to understand the results of the changes beforehand and the need to take a holistic approach to making any performance modifications. That's all.

Sorry to add to the confusion. Regards,
Bill Shaw
Old 05-20-2004, 06:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #78 (permalink)
PEP PEP is offline
Registered User
 
PEP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: The Alps of Texas
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally posted by BMW Atlanta
on that note,................a Turbo is a bolt on and is the most efficient power adder you can find. I would rather do a turbo then put high compression cylinders but the cost is prohibitive as well as the air cooling aspect to make it reliable and go like hell
Hey, Bobby... How much research have you done into turbos for an oilhead?... I found the old Luftmeister/RB Racing R1100RS, and have read just about everything I could get my hands on over the past year or so...

My partner Brian used to hold a few class records in MC drac racing from teams he's worked for, so the mechanical part of it is no problem, it's just the technical understanding we want to make sure we have down...

After spending nearly 12 months trying to figure out all the plumbing for a single turbo and not coming up with anything we liked, I stumbled on these very small Aerocharger units that are used for snowmobiles and personal watercraft motors of 600cc and less... They are really tiny: Just a bit bigger than tennis balls, and they are also self contained, so there isn't any oil plumbing to worry about... Not only that, but they have variable vanes, so there is no bypass valve needed... Very, very clean...

We are thinking now about just fabricating some adapter flanges and bolting one to the front of each cylinder... This would make the exhaust plumbing a cinch, since the outlet would be nearly the same as the header path for the R1100S/1150R headers... Fabricating the rest of an underseat deal would be very simple...

The compressed air would exit the turbos pointing right back to where the stock airbox is, which we'd replace with a two in/two out intercooler with ducting... The output would be in almost the same place as the airbox output is, pointing right at the throttle bodies... Super clean...

The motor we have for the project is an R1200C motor I bought last year, which we'd like to put R1100RS heads on that will be ported, polished, and twin sparked by SJBMW... Of all the cams for the oilhead, the original R1100RS cams seem like the ones that will work with the turbo the best... I'd like to get a set of the early "beta" heads with the larger valves [I don't want to tear up my R1100RS motor to get 'em, because the motor will take a long time, and I like riding the bike ]...

For the FI, we're thinking about an RB racing twin-injector system that would allow us to adjust the mapping for the turbo... We only plan to run a modest 5 PSI of boost, because what I'm looking for isn't high revs and huge HP, I want a torque-monster [Which is why I got the R1200C lump ]... The R1200C motor came with the two oil coolers [It was from a wreck], and we plan to work those into the oil lines for some additional cooling and oil capacity...

Other than balancing and blueprinting the motor, the only other thing we plan to do is throw the C's super-heavy flywheel in Brian's lathe and lighten it...

We're going to replace the R1100RS clutch with a ceramic clutch made for the R1100GS...

We plan to start work on this next winter... Sound like we're on the right track?...
__________________
I'm not Dr, Curve... I have a Masters degree...
R1100RS/GS/S "Lazarus"
K1200LT/RS "Leviathan"
http://homepage.mac.com/pep27/PhotoAlbum1.html
Old 05-20-2004, 06:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #79 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BMW Atlanta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Marietta, GA USA
Posts: 2,040
Send a message via AIM to BMW Atlanta Send a message via Yahoo to BMW Atlanta
If you go with a larger oil cooler,........you will need a larger oil pan as well if you wish to monitor true oil levels. Not sure how you would accomplish that. My fear of adding an additional cooler would be you would not have any of the oil left on the bottom of the motor to suck up cause it would all be hiding in the extra coolers.

As for the vein turbos,........they would be boost limited so your expections sound realistic. The R1200C would need some higher compression and better cams for sure if you wish to get some good power out it. Otherwise you will be adding 6psi to a 61HP & 71lbs motor and netting marginal gains in my mind. At 6 psi you wouldnt have to necessarily intercool the system if you were sucking cold air. Intercooling becomes essential at 10+ psi or so. It would also be easier to intercool if you have a water cooled engine. Team Mettisse turbo'ed an S and I believe obtained 160HP out of it, that wouldnt be a good daily driver but the volumetric efficiency is kicking! I would definitely recommend some kind of aftermarket fuel injection with boost retard control and maybe a knock sensor. Haltec makes a great programable fuel management system, but it costs just over $1000 buck. A boost regulated fuel pressure system would also be nice as you will have the ability to dial in the bike better with less hassle and can optimize your injection system that way.

I was friends with the great late John Meyers who was the pro drag bike guy in 95-97 until he met a dear on his street bike in 98 or somewhere around there. I learned alot from him and he helped my car and I do wonderful things with turbos that left many scratching their heads.
__________________
Bobby
BMW Ducati & Husqvarna of Atlanta
06 HP2 SM, Akra Ti, RapidBike3,
Old 05-20-2004, 06:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #80 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:39 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.