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Of course this discussion is S related. But what about all those people with GS's and so many other BMW models I see and meet at the rally's like "Top of the Rockies" who enjoy adding a Staintune to their bike, or a replacement, seat, driving lights, etc. There are very few that can ride well enough to fully appreciate even 1 to 3 hp more anyway. And it really is the total area under the curve that matters, not peak HP. Sometimes I think the few BMW snobs or those that tout top HP as the end all would really do their closed minds a favor by looking at what the Harley and other engine modifiers have known for a long time. People make a lot of mods because of the simple "enjoyment" of it.

Its a given that you will spend $2K to $3K on most mods, regardless of the brand or bikes owned. Heck, to me thats part of the fun of ownership. It may not mean diddley to Dr. Spock or Pup or LorenFU, but we are all doing it for different reasons. Waste of money? Maybe, but its also like having a plain white wall and pissing away dollars on art - simply to put it there.

Seems to me the easiest way to blow money on a bike is to buy and sell one constantly, churning dollars out the door through your loss on resale or trade in. Always wanting the "latest & greatest" bike or car is the fastest way to burn through your wallets "mere money." IMO.
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Old 05-20-2004, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BMW Atlanta
If you go with a larger oil cooler,........you will need a larger oil pan as well if you wish to monitor true oil levels. Not sure how you would accomplish that. My fear of adding an additional cooler would be you would not have any of the oil left on the bottom of the motor to suck up cause it would all be hiding in the extra coolers.

As for the vein turbos,........they would be boost limited so your expections sound realistic. The R1200C would need some higher compression and better cams for sure if you wish to get some good power out it. Otherwise you will be adding 6psi to a 61HP & 71lbs motor and netting marginal gains in my mind. At 6 psi you wouldnt have to necessarily intercool the system if you were sucking cold air. Intercooling becomes essential at 10+ psi or so. It would also be easier to intercool if you have a water cooled engine. Team Mettisse turbo'ed an S and I believe obtained 160HP out of it, that wouldnt be a good daily driver but the volumetric efficiency is kicking! I would definitely recommend some kind of aftermarket fuel injection with boost retard control and maybe a knock sensor. Haltec makes a great programable fuel management system, but it costs just over $1000 buck. A boost regulated fuel pressure system would also be nice as you will have the ability to dial in the bike better with less hassle and can optimize your injection system that way.

I was friends with the great late John Meyers who was the pro drag bike guy in 95-97 until he met a dear on his street bike in 98 or somewhere around there. I learned alot from him and he helped my car and I do wonderful things with turbos that left many scratching their heads.
WOW!... Thanks a ton!... I hadn't stumbled onto the Haltec, so I really appreciate that!... The guy at RB Racing is so condescending that I'd rather not deal with him if I can help it... They also have some nightmare customer service stories under their belt ... As for the intercooler, we want one "just in case"... Never know where this might lead, so might as well put it in there to begin with... We're going to use a simple air-transfer unit, so it won't be liquified or anything... It'll just give us some margin to play with... "Boost Regulated Fuel Pressure System": Would that really be necessary at 5-6 PSI of boost?... If so, where would I go for that?...

Since you are aware of the R1200C's twin oil coolers, you know they are quite small... Brian is of the opinion that if we just make sure the oil level is to the top of the sightglass when the bike is on it's paddock stand, we'll be fine... I too know of nobody who makes a bigger oil pan for the oilhead, but I'm doubting we'll need it...

As for the expense, this is already a stupid project... It's become a "because it's there" kind of thing... An "adventure in wrenching", which I'm sure you can relate to ... That Haltec is nothing: You know how much those two Aerochargers are going to cost?! ...

There are certain advantages to having no wife, no kids, no pets, and no girlfriends in your peak earning years ...

Would it be OK if I PM'd you as Brian and I get into this?... I'll end up buying some stuff from you [Fully set up heads with valve gear and cams, for instance]... And if you guys are set up to do porting and polishing, I'll get that done with you as well... SJBMW does the twin spark thing, and have all the wiring for that, so that may be all I need them for [If you guys don't do that]...

Thanks again!...

George
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:07 AM
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Yeah, keep me in the loop. I would recommend going through SJBMW for the motor mods as they will be probably be doing mine in the near future. I'll need to make some "significant" mods to scare off the new K1200S owners.

As for the fuel pressure regulator, Essex makes an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that responds to vacuum/boost. Under boost it will increase your fuel pressure which will be very important if you get up into the 10-12+psi range in the future. You may even be able to use the stock management system, adjustable fuel regulator and a powercommander from SJBMW to accomplish up to 6psi of boost, but the Haltec will be superior and I believe is small enough to take the place of the original Motronic.

Good luck with it, hope it works
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BMW Atlanta
Yeah, keep me in the loop. I would recommend going through SJBMW for the motor mods as they will be probably be doing mine in the near future. I'll need to make some "significant" mods to scare off the new K1200S owners.

As for the fuel pressure regulator, Essex makes an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that responds to vacuum/boost. Under boost it will increase your fuel pressure which will be very important if you get up into the 10-12+psi range in the future. You may even be able to use the stock management system, adjustable fuel regulator and a powercommander from SJBMW to accomplish up to 6psi of boost, but the Haltec will be superior and I believe is small enough to take the place of the original Motronic.

Good luck with it, hope it works
Kewell!... I'll keep you informed of our progress... Guess I couldn't ask for a better endorsement for SJBMW than that!...

Muchas grasias, mi hermano!...

Jorge...
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:32 AM
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Hi Pep,

Sounds cool. I think you definitely want a boost referenced regulator, but I'm sure Bobby's more up on that. Naturally, there IS NO oilpan on the oilheads, just the crankcases, so no options there. Also, raising the oil level on a boxer twin is very likely to be a break-even, or possibly a negative, when you look at windage, and more importantly, pumping losses. Obviously I have no specific data on that, but am just commenting about the architecture in question here, and maybe providing some food for thought.

I'll also note that a couple of the beemer club newletters quite a few years ago tested larger oilpans on airheads and found no measureable change in oiltemp. I'm not sure that's true, but, in my own (airhead_ testing, I only saw about 6 degrees. I run a larger oilpan on some airheads, but mostly as a way (by taking the opposite to your proposed tack, and running the oil below normal level) to increase crankcase volume and reduce pumping losses and misting (it's easy to see a bunch less oil recovered by the breather (if you use a catch bottle) once you drop the oil level. Again, just food for thought.

I think larger oil coolers are the way to go, especially since they add not only more cooling area, but more oil. And unlike larger oilpans (which aren't an option here anyway) they should put all the additonal oil to use (whereas big oilpans don't always circulate well)

Cool project and do keep us posted. And thanks to all of you who are talking tech.
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by roger albert
Hi Pep,

Sounds cool. I think you definitely want a boost referenced regulator, but I'm sure Bobby's more up on that. Naturally, there IS NO oilpan on the oilheads, just the crankcases, so no options there. Also, raising the oil level on a boxer twin is very likely to be a break-even, or possibly a negative, when you look at windage, and more importantly, pumping losses. Obviously I have no specific data on that, but am just commenting about the architecture in question here, and maybe providing some food for thought.

I'll also note that a couple of the beemer club newletters quite a few years ago tested larger oilpans on airheads and found no measureable change in oiltemp. I'm not sure that's true, but, in my own (airhead_ testing, I only saw about 6 degrees. I run a larger oilpan on some airheads, but mostly as a way (by taking the opposite to your proposed tack, and running the oil below normal level) to increase crankcase volume and reduce pumping losses and misting (it's easy to see a bunch less oil recovered by the breather (if you use a catch bottle) once you drop the oil level. Again, just food for thought.

I think larger oil coolers are the way to go, especially since they add not only more cooling area, but more oil. And unlike larger oilpans (which aren't an option here anyway) they should put all the additonal oil to use (whereas big oilpans don't always circulate well)

Cool project and do keep us posted. And thanks to all of you who are talking tech.
Thanks Roger... Excellent things to keep in mind, all of which had escaped detection by my little brain, since I never had an airhead ...

Don't you just HATE when these flame wars devolve into good technical discussions? LOL!...
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:41 AM
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Yeah, you're killing me Pep.
Btw, those bearing with hole things you describe a few days back as being used as zero-slack/clearance linkagae elements are HEIM JOINTS.
I'd started to respond, but was too lazy to find the original post/description you'd read. They're great for zero clearance and friction, but it needs to be kept in mind that there is also NO compliance (bearing material being biased HEAVILY towards hardness over elasticity) and that they need to be replaced at much higher frequency. Still good and desireable, but I'm just pointing out there's a reason one sees them on racecraft, but not commuters (i.e. the reason is not just cost, but longevity) Try to run them at least with a rubber boot or neoprene wrap if possible. Only place I run one is on the duc's steering damper. There you clearly want ZERO slack (so the WHOLE stroke is damped) plus, the joint is not normally significantly loaded (unlike suspension, or even shift linkages) so the wear is less an issue.
Again, I'm being cautious given the state of things of late, so let me explicitly state that I'm just providing some material for consideraton, not offering criticism. Cool? Hope so!
take care
roger
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:55 AM
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When you make comments like this:

"I wouldnt need to go up to N GA mountains 4 days prior to "practice" my riding skill as you so eloquently put it in your own thread not even a month ago cause its MY BACKYARD!!!!!!!"

they mean little. Just because you are near to something does not mean you know how to use it. I always preride the roads anywhere I go for a few days before I increase the tempo.............and you should to if you want to reach my age. Many people are there riding each year at the GMR. Join us and quit hidding behind your family duties if you are going to try and do any more than "talk mountains" with the ones who are out there in them.

The following passage that you posted is new to me and I do not know of what you speak. I have ridden many miles with Bob (Snakemaster) Reynolds and hold his respect as he does mine. We and others have played hard many times and still do when the roads are right. I lead, catch, follow and trail as is needed and that is the same for all of the serous, TNP, riders I know. What are you getting at by your comments? What are you suggesting in this following posted paragraph??

"As for how you ride,.......how about Bob Reynolds and I show you how to lead,.......cause I hear you're really great at following and mimicking us GA boys around the curves. I am not proclaiming to kick your ass in the mountains,.........but I do know my bike will kick your bikes ass PERIOD hahahahaha

And also this reference to the BR500..........what are you talking about. Where is Alpharetta in relation to the route, did we go through it, or what. What is so funny about a event years ago that would have you rolling on the floor?

"As for the Blue Ridge 500 3 years ago,..............what happened in Alpharetta?????? care to eloborate??????? and you DO know what I am talking about. So if you want to take this personal,.....go for it. But I think its funny as hell, I been rolling on the floor this morning."

As far as the following brag of yours..........yes we all would like to go over for a "first ride" and few of us can. Thats why I have not mentioned till now that I, too, have been invited to go for a test ride the K12S........at the dealer intro this coming June. I don't know if I will be able to accept because of other obligations but perhaps I will be there and ride one at the same time as you. You stated:

"Besides I know you're green with envy as I will be riding a new K1200S before you ever get to see one in person and to top it off I think I might even get onto Nurbergring with one,...........damn life is GOOD!!!!!!!!!!Of course I could just be dreaming on that account,........or maybe I'm not."

Anyway Bobby enjoy the fatness of a good life and accept that to get your bike on over the hump you will need the internal mods that you are now going to seek. SJBMW is a great place to do it and your bike will have more serious sustained power with their piston and rod kit, plus the other goodies as well.

What is the other stuff about, concerning lead, follow, and a town in Georgia all about? We had great times every year the BR500 was run. Where were you........at the shop?
Old 05-20-2004, 08:12 AM
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Could we please take the riding portion of the pissing contest off line?
Thanks
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Old 05-20-2004, 08:16 AM
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You go PEP! I'll bet you are at least moderately successful with that projedct, and I will be listening for some data. This winter I'm going to do an R259 motor; looking now for a binned rs, rt or s for the motor....bacause like you, I can't stand leaving things alone.
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Old 05-20-2004, 08:29 AM
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See the difference between you and I is I am not taking this seriously, having fun with it and you wish to take it personally. I have many obligations and to be honest with you I rather spend my time working making money for my toys and keeping everyone else in the mountains that week as that is my livelyhood. I dont take it personal that you dont want to ride my bike,......whatever. But its your "in the box" thinking thats the killer. You and I shared a discussion at GMR about your image on this forum and well,...........you earned it and evidently you are concerned with it to some degree. I dont really let this stuff hit too deep if at all, whatever. As for technically speaking, I will gladly accept any dyno challenge or rolling start accelleration test you wish to offer and your scrawny butt weighs alot less then me, so who would have the advantage?????. I am willing to wager I will still leave you in the dust on any straight because of my bikes bolt ons you so outragously dismiss. What kind of journalist are you if you dont exploit every opportunity to maybe see things from the other side? This is what it all comes down to. But until your Bike walks away from my BIKE,........I will stand behind the controversial comment that my bike will kick your bikes butt!!!!!!!!!!! For all the money you lost on your Boxer Cup Replica,........You could have a much faster well tuned S and still have supported your local dealer. I guess in all reality I dont care if you dont see the value in the bolt ons and thats just fine by me. But youre stirring up the muck and arent willing to entertain there is another side. Many of us understand that its not for everyone, but are we calling anyone cheap or ignorant?............Is anyone saying an R1100S owner is committing an injustice by leaving your bike stock??? Well in essence you are trying to argue the merits of spending a dime on a BMW R1100S and I beg to differ,..........not only have I made personal gains with my bike,.......but its my livelyhood to help find ways for others to enjoy their bike, and I am not going to just take money for whatever they think might work.......I, like other good vendors on this board wish to help people and support myself while doing it,......dont mess with that.
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Old 05-20-2004, 09:30 AM
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I like the idea of a riding contest. I think Bobby and Curve and Pep and BMW Rider should all take it to the track and have at it. It would put an end to these pissing contests once and for all. Curve will never do it because all he's ever done is boast about how fast he is on the street which is a joke because only an idiot is fast on the street. You can only go as fast as your courage or health insurance allow you - there's no way you can come close to skill limits on the street.

One of the things I find refreshing about the track and racing is that there are never these sort of boasts or challenges - it's all resolved when the green flag waves. Perhaps we could petition for an Oil Head Invitational to run concurently with the Air Head Invitational this fall and those posters and boasters could come and finally put up or shut up. I suspect the loudest wouldn't be seen.

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Old 05-20-2004, 10:00 AM
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Can we get an AMEN???????? I'm feeling it now, hahahha
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Old 05-20-2004, 10:02 AM
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Hey Sak; I suggested something like this early in this post session, I think; I suggested a neutral track like barber and using 'school bikes' like R6's so no-one wads their pride-n-joy; that would sure shut up the whiners and posers; I have to admit I would take some infantile glee in attempting to shut up some of the more bombastic posters here (and yes, I know I run the chance of getting my head handed to me; I'll risk it...hehehehe); ever notice when a tangible challeng like this is thrown down the subject is quickly changed? wonder why? talk is cheap....
and Roger, I promise this is the last "I can ride better'n you' post from me...there's ALWAYS somebody better; usually the quiet guy in the corner not saying a word, who let's his or her riding speak for them..
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Old 05-20-2004, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
In favor of the Doctor, I have ridden many S's, some of them bone stock, some with pipes and chips and the odd K&N.

The first time I was surprised about the punch that some stockers have, one came close to my own (at the time) black S (with chip&pipes&K&N work, who was faster than my current red S pre-cams&pistons works).

The second one I rode had the pipes and chips work. It was much slower than my modified black S.

The other one I borrowed a few weeks back, when my red S was undergoing major surgery, had the cat eliminator and K&N. And it was REALLY fast. I mean fast. (not as fast as my $10k invested red S though).

My conclusion: all S's differ (BIG time). Some are slow stockers, some fast stockers. They all benefit from the mods used by us all. Indeed, cams and pistons make ALL the difference but also the pipes&chips work improve power. I have (seen) the graphs that proof that. The combination of all mods, as I have them now, are really impressive, unquestionable. I would consider the amount of cash you're willing to invest. If you do it all, like I did, it will cost you dearly. I would recommend the cams, pistons, cups&bolts, head and port flowing first, than chip, cat eliminator, cans, K&N and whatever I forgot.

Did I make sense here?

Guys, let's give the doctor a break OK, he has a point. I know cause the biggest power gain only came AFTER a added the kit. Before that, with only the 'pipes&chips' work the bike did run smoother and was more responsive. And with the Induct mounted it ran even better. Maybe all that only accounted for '1.2hp gain'. Who knows. Didn't put it on the dyno cause I was happy with the power boost all me mods provided me.

OTH, we have seen many dyno's that show higher curves than the Doctor refers to.

So, why not cut the crap and have a HP contest? Show us the graphs. Now. Do it. Do it!
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Old 05-20-2004, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonyRR
there's ALWAYS somebody better; usually the quiet guy in the corner not saying a word, who let's his or her riding speak for them..
Yeah, I'll give an "AMEN!" to that... Just like Bjorn Borg never said squat, just let his tennis game do the talking for him... Meanwhile Nastasi and Connors looked like big babies with all their whining...

I enjoy sparking debate, but that's just because I like to get differing opinions on things to see if my level of understanding is where I think it is, and I'm always learning things from guys like Roger and Bobby... I don't like it when things descend into wee-wee matches, though I sometimes get suckered into that too...

The way I always phrase the question to myself is, "Could I beat myself if I was riding my [K1200LT or R1100RS] and also a [Insert the bike of your choice here]?", because that is really the only question that matters... To any of us...

When I started my R1100RS project, for example, the Boxercup version of the R1100S did not as yet exist... As a result, I studied the snot out of the standard R1100S and the R1100GS, but we were well on our path to completion when the Boxercup came out, so I never really investigated that bike at all... I know for a fact that if I was riding both my R1100RS and a standard R1100S down FM 170, I'd do better on my RS... In the last few days, I've been forced to revisit the issue looking at the Boxercup specs [Since a lot of you guys have them], and I must admit I had no Idea it was that much taller, and lighter, or that the suspension was that much better... So, I have also been forced to go through an evolution of thought and conclude that the Boxercup has some advantages over my RS that might allow me to beat [b]myself[/i] down FM 170 if I was on a Boxercup versus my RS...

This is not all bad, of course, because an Ohlins or Wilbers Boxercup front shock will probably fit on my bike just fine, and if not, getting Wilbers to make an R1100GS set that is similar wouldn't present a problem at all... I'll probably ask them to give me something in between an R1100S Boxercup and an R1100GS suspension in terms of spring rates since I have to contend with so many kindey-bruising dips and flying leaps where I ride... I like how I figure these things out just when I'm getting ready for an upgrade ...
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R1100RS/GS/S "Lazarus"
K1200LT/RS "Leviathan"
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Old 05-20-2004, 03:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #96 (permalink)
lost sole...
 
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Excellent!

PEP has stepped up to the plate and issued a challange to himself which he has accepted.

PEP when you decide to meet yourself on FM 170 you should bring an impartial third party to make sure you don't cheat. I'm looking forward to this but I'm not a fool - my money is on PEP.

sigh...
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Old 05-20-2004, 03:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #97 (permalink)
PEP PEP is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sakurama
Excellent!

PEP has stepped up to the plate and issued a challange to himself which he has accepted.

PEP when you decide to meet yourself on FM 170 you should bring an impartial third party to make sure you don't cheat. I'm looking forward to this but I'm not a fool - my money is on PEP.

sigh...
ROFL!... Perhaps you could officiate, Gregor?... I'll provide a place for you to stay in Alpine, and you can handle all the betting... Either way, we both win! ...

Uh... But no way I'm getting into a race with you, man... Unless you are riding a moped! ...
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I'm not Dr, Curve... I have a Masters degree...
R1100RS/GS/S "Lazarus"
K1200LT/RS "Leviathan"
http://homepage.mac.com/pep27/PhotoAlbum1.html
Old 05-20-2004, 03:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #98 (permalink)
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PEP,

Power to you mate for thinking outside the square. It is this kind of thinking that usually ends up in better products for the regular consumer. The RS you have is wild and obviously took a lot of thought and hard work. Keep it up.

You must be confused as to who would win out of both of you and which bike it would be.
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1998 R1100S Yellow is the best (now departed from my life)
Old 05-20-2004, 03:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #99 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Jonesboro, GA
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Alzight you little zissy boyz.Mr. Deltoid is here tooo pump yooou up!! Bobby, Doc. C, Pep(Dr. Frankenstein),The Toid' here is offering a zittle challenge around zee Suches or anyvare in zee North JorJa area. Alvight geezers, get zee Ben Gay or Icey Hot ready, blitzkrieg is avaiting you.Your deztruction vill come from an S with a case of Warsteiner in zee saddle bags unt zee tanken baggin.Never mind zee extra weight, you vill need zee bier ven you get stomped unto schnitzel!! I live in Jonesboro south of zee ATL. A regime of HGH unt steroids will be advized my geriatric brethren.
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Old 05-20-2004, 05:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #100 (permalink)
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