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Living on borrowed time!
 
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Oh, and one last thing. A simple google search on 'controller-area network' brought this url: http://www.can.bosch.com/
Good Grief, Charley Brown! our own Bosch, involved in bringing Big Brother right into the cockpit and saddle of all things motorized. I looked at the overview of the specs and protocols; it's scarey, kids, scarey. You heard it here first (mostly) how about a scoot that continiously broadcasts it's GPS location, scurrent peed, top speed attained, red lights previously run, etc, etc, etc, etc, to anything with an authorized reciever....the 'jetsons' are here, but no-one is smiling...
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Old 05-25-2004, 08:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #121 (permalink)
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we might as well all dress in gray uniforms, burn all the books in the library, and destroy all things artistic...

picking up on the tail end of the conversation...i H8 ABS...it got tricked back when i had my 99 and lucky for me i am here to talk about it. never again will i have an ABS bike, unless i had the GS and can turn it off.

as for the little black box. the point about these boxes is that any time there is an accident or you are pulled over, this information could be used against you in a court of law. although the use of the info against you when just pulled over is a stretch as they can not prove that it was you driving the car at the time unless eye witness, yada yada yada. but that aside. lets say someone wrecks into you and they check your box and see you were speeding. the LEO may issue you a ticket and insurance may refuse to pay, etc.

repoe3
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Old 05-25-2004, 09:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #122 (permalink)
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CAN data is not available wirelessly. Courts are unlikely to allow the cruisers to plug into your K12S, 999, or Multistrada. Not impossible if Ashcroft stays around, but the worry seems a bit alarmist to me.
CAN is nothing unique. It's just the difference between serial and parallel communictions. You either have data access, or you don't (and the appropriate/incriminating data is either stored, or it isn't) but CAN has NOTHING to do with it. You might as well be scared by your printer or scanner having a USB interface instead of a parallel cable.
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Old 05-25-2004, 09:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #123 (permalink)
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Hi Roger; I used to be immersed almost 24X7 in the 'alarmist' world vis-a-vis writing software for tactical and strategic command-and-control systems and doing tech support on computers that drive 'what-if' wargame scenarios. A little bit of paranoia is almost required to come up with some kind of plausible story line in that biz, but just because CAN data (or some subset of the greater dataset, like max velocity attained, etc) is not available wireless TODAY doesn't mean it won't be tomorrow. If the capability even is an option then there will be folks who want to enable that option, and last-30-seconds crash data IS currently available from any OBDII vehicle via the airbag, and I recall one case in Washington state where the guy DID get prosecuted via his airbag data. I'm NOT saying anything like this is a GOOD thing, just that the capability does exist and is closer than many of us would like. I was around some real electronics geniuses when I worked for a gov't entity called EPG, and I can tell you for a fact the foxes are guarding the henhouse...in fact, I was so mouthy (no surprise there, eh) about the moral implications of some of the things I saw and worked on, that I'm not there anymore....(blessing in disguise, as I'd be one of those contractors that's a 'high-value target' to the bad guys/freedom fighters (take your pick). But there IS a vocal significant minority in the federal gov't that wants all kinds of empirical data to be available from privately-owned vehicles on demand...
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Old 05-25-2004, 10:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #124 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by roger albert
...You might as well be scared by your printer or scanner having a USB interface instead of a parallel cable.
I love it!

Cadillac got nailed a decaded (or more) ago for voiding people's warrenties because the black box told them the car had been operated above legal speed limits. They used the info to void the warrenty. Courts said it was illegal search/seizure, something like that.

Most interesting point to all this black box data collection is the lawyers. Usually they trumpet any technology that will give them more information to use against someone in a court of law. Only problem is, they drive, too! They could be the one's that get hooked by the black box. After all, the box is the ultimate in non-descriminitory robotics. The box don't care if a car-jacking dirt bag or a self-important Park Avenue lawyer is driving. It just reports the facts. And facts are the one thing our legal system seems to have the most trouble handling.

Cops aren't going to be so open-armed about the box either. Take that jerk ex-Governor in Minnesota that plowed into the Harley rider. The box would have provided absolute proof that he had blown the stop sign, that he was driving well above the limit, and would have mandated that he be treated just like a "normal" citizen, no special treatment. I can see where a lot of self-important people are going to hate the black box and fight like mad to keep it out of their vehicles.
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Old 05-25-2004, 10:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #125 (permalink)
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Hi All; Man, I hope moybin is right; like I said earlier I'm NOT advocating any such horseapples, just be aware that it IS out there and likely to get worse before/if it gets better. I'm glad I'm not any younger than I am, and glad that I got away with all that I did get away with in my misspent (not!) youth. Some of the stuff we pulled when we were kids got a stern lecture then and would result in a felony charge now...
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Old 05-25-2004, 10:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #126 (permalink)
 
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Just to keep this thread drifting off course, I'll toss in the fact that the Israelis had a security breach due to an active cell phone that no one knew about. So they have come up with a cell phone jammer and have them installed in their highest security areas.

I'd love to have one of those on my bike so I could jam all the soccer moms blabbing their heads off and not watching the road!!!

My biggest concern is they would then divert MORE attention to the nonfunctioning phone and I would be the cause of my own demise!!!

Or in otherwords, no good deed goes unpunished.
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #127 (permalink)
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What we REALLY need: directional, frequency-selective EMP; zap the boomboxmobile next to ya that's blaring out 2livecrew at 150DB as the clueless driver drifts into your lane; one zap of the 'electrical death ray' and the car's cpu and 10,000 watt amp goes 'poof'....pulls off to the side of the road with no power to anything as he/she wonders what's up...one can dream...
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #128 (permalink)
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> My biggest concern is they would then divert MORE attention to the nonfunctioning phone and I would be the cause of my own demise!!!

EXACTLY. You'd just have them more pissed and distracted and staring at and punching the keyboard. Sounds terribly counterproductive.
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:50 PM
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Being a former Minnesota resident, it was a Senator (and ex-governor) from SOUTH DAKOTA who hit the HD rider...

Harold

Liked MN but the roads (and weather) in CA are much better...
Old 05-25-2004, 02:02 PM
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Interesting direction this thread has gone... I can easily see myself getting to a certain bike and sticking with it for ever... In fact, I'm already there in a couple of ways... BMW has a 0% chance of selling me a bike with fully integrated brakes, so there is no way I'd replace my '00 LT with a newer version that has ABS III... I simply will not have a bike where the rear brake activates the front... Don't mind the front activating the rear as much, but I use the rear brake alone a lot on every ride I take... If I can get away without getting the power assist feature, I will... Yet one more reason to hold on to my '94 R1100RS... I want a K1200S, but if BMW offers a smaller displacement version without ABS, I've decided I'll go that direction... My primary concern isn't Big Brother, but the ability to work on my bikes myself... ABS II already stores fault codes, and you need a dealership to clear those, which I hate... But the power assist feature renders the brake system so complex, that you can't work on them yourself at all!... There is a bill working it's way through Congress, BTW, that would require manufacturers to set their vehicles up so that consumers can work on them... IOW, not allow manufacturers to get to a "no user servicable parts inside" point, which they obviously want to do since they make so much money off of service... If this passes, it will seriously cramp BMW's style, as they already have features that can't be serviced by the consumer... I want that bill to pass, so contact your Congressmen and Senators!... Here's the info you need to refference the bill:

Quote:
Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act of 2003 (Introduced in House)

HR 2735 IH

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 2735

To protect the rights of American consumers to diagnose, service, and repair motor vehicles purchased in the United States, and for other purposes.
Be sure to tell them you want motorcycles included!...
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Old 05-25-2004, 02:54 PM
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"CAN is nothing unique. It's just the difference between serial and parallel communictions. "

Roger, you can do better than that. You gave a very poor definition.

CAN is simply a another bus system similiar to a LAN which allows all elements
on a twisted pair of an automotive network to communicate with each other.
Other busses such as the "K" & "L" lines (Bosch) and OBDII are still present with CAN.
Some CAN buses use fiber optics. Any type of interface can be developed and
used to access a CAN. e.g. RS232, USB, WiFi, or parallel to serial box.

"Not impossible if Ashcroft stays around" - Another paranoid left wing comment!
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Last edited by Lorenfb; 05-26-2004 at 09:01 AM..
Old 05-25-2004, 08:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #132 (permalink)
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Yes, I could, as an EE working for a telecom company, and a guy who studied some early automotive buses nearly 15 years ago in Germany, yes, I could offer a lot more than that. Not sure about better. How many would get all of it anyway? I think most reasonable people could understand the point, which is that CAN offers no new frailty. As you said, it's just a bus, which was my point. And as I already said, any type of interface you mentioned above could be adapted to todays non CAN systems too. You've only further made my point. Nothing new with CAN.

As for paranoid, that sounds like a Loren value judgement. Given that I'm far from left wing, and you don't know me in the least, I think your comment only shows the value of your judgement. Or more likely, that you just like being a detractor in general, and towards me in particular. That's OK. It all seems to stem from your early and very technically incorrect posts and advice given on the board, and you not liking being called on it. That's too bad. I welcome being corrected where I'm wrong. It's a great learning opportunity.
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #133 (permalink)
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Learning by making mistakes....

Greetings,

"I welcome being corrected where I'm wrong. It's a great learning opportunity."

Roger Albert, 2004

Yes, me too!

I am glad that I have/had many mentors both past and present that have provided me with their expertise.

Being wrong is good it means that you tried and have seen the light.

This board is a great source of info both technical and psychological.

Ride safe!
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:36 AM
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Re: Learning by making mistakes....

Quote:
Originally posted by boxercup

This board is a great source of info both technical and psychological.

Ride safe!
Ummm... aren't you forgetting my contributions?
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:38 AM
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #136 (permalink)
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Hi Roger; Very briefly; I wasn't trying to hijack this thread or induce any more paranoia into a discussion, just stimulate the thought processes into some vigilance; today's 'what-if' turns into tomorrow's 'just-did-it'; and many times, just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. I'm NOT an advocate for more Big Brother; but I DID work in a place where the speculative 'what-if' and 'can-we-do-this' ran rampant and this was at the federal gov't level; there were some real geniuses with electonic components that I was around; I claim absolutely no expretise in that arena, especially compared to some of those folks; some of 'em scared me badly; I knew one of the principal architects of an early version of carnivore, now called dcs1000 and the real nasty one, promis. Scarey what can actually be accomplished today in the real world with the microchip, and not all federal agences are bumblers; in fact, they actively cultivate that image on the premise that no-one will really believe they are capable of some of the things that really do exist...
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:52 AM
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Hi Jony,

I'm pretty sure I don't care if it get's hijacked one way or the other, and I"m even more sure I'm not the one throwing the word paranoia around. If I was, I'd attach the word healthy, at least in this context, and overlooking the non-novelty of the CAN "threat"

No problems from me. I find it pretty interesting. I dealt with some semi scary electronics and mindsets in MI about 20-25 years ago. God only knows what's possible now.

The technology scares me little. The people employing it, significantly.
It can always be used to hurt or help. And it's a fine line. Very fine right now. I want terrorists caught, and decent folks left 100% alone. No idea how to FULLY reconcile the two.
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:02 AM
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"It all seems to stem from your early and very technically incorrect posts and advice given on the board, and you not liking being called on it."

Please. I don't think so!
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:05 AM
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I was just theorizing
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:08 AM
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