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Yeah, me too; btw, I meant that I was the one initiating my version of 'paranoia', not you. I've got a healthy dose of it, 'specially after the last decade semi-deep in the DoD. And we're both right to be concerned about the people employing it; it's not that they are BAD folks, in the main, but constant exposure to that environment 'corrodes the soul' as Tom Clancy put it; every incremental bit of 'mission creep' in the collective mindset makes it easier to justify what could be viewed as abuse with a dispassionate examination of the circumstances. I believe that same saw about trading liberty for security gets neither; that's one reason I don't have a dot-mil email address anymore...
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by roger albert
I was just theorizing
Aren't we all?! ...
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:05 AM
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #143 (permalink)
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"quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by roger albert
I was just theorizing
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Aren't we all?! ...





Not (theorizing) about the actual HP value of the most popular mods however. Its still "into the engine" for more real sustained HP..........while agreeing that the other things are nice.......just not as power enhancing as has been suggested by this forum in the past. Chip, filter, duct, pipes........equal usually about 1.5 HP sustained power increase, max.
Thanks to all for such a nice thread, often postive, that led out into many directions.
Still trying to decide if this forum collectively feels that a R11S is quicker through Deals Gap, for instance, than a K12RS. Don't most acknowledge that a K12S will out gun a R11S on both tight and open roads, or are die-hards out there who think that a K12RS will get slipped by a R11S when things start to tighten up for twenty miles or so. Suspension mods help both bikes of course, but does the R11S need suspension mods MORE THAN a K12RS.............or is the other way around. Curious as to others experience.
Old 05-26-2004, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Curve
[BStill trying to decide if this forum collectively feels that a R11S is quicker through Deals Gap, for instance, than a K12RS. Don't most acknowledge that a K12S will out gun a R11S on both tight and open roads, or are die-hards out there who think that a K12RS will get slipped by a R11S when things start to tighten up for twenty miles or so. Suspension mods help both bikes of course, but does the R11S need suspension mods MORE THAN a K12RS.............or is the other way around. Curious as to others experience. [/B]
i don't think we're collectively going to agree on this or much of anything for that matter. It really depends on the rider... but if the extra horsies are rendered unusable... i would say the S has the upper hand as slight as it may be.
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:49 AM
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What, if any, are the implications of a totally new front suspension system on traditional riding skills? Is this going to be "transparent" as the software types so lovingly say? Or will interesting/disturbing quirks show up?

Inquiring minds want to know, and it seems we won't find out until someone puts many hours & miles on a few of these beasts.
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Old 05-26-2004, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonyRR
I saw lean misfire every time I touched an XS11, for example, and all the carb synch's and plug changes in the world would do NO good when the idle mixture ega'd below .01% CO...as soon as I pulled the idle mixture plugs, did a careful synch, and set the CO to 3%, the thing ran perfectly, the cylinderhead temps LOWEReD by 150F measured with a spark plug temp thermocouple, cause the mixture was rich enough to both cool the combustion chamber and ignite fully with a stock ingnition system.
Damn, no wonder my XS11 ran so sheety! I loved and HATED that bike so much that I had to have two of them!
Old 05-26-2004, 01:12 PM
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Well, you might have gotten one that was tuned correctly . I really liked 'em too..pulled like a freight train and reliable as an anvil once they got dialled-in, tuning wise. ever see the movie 'take it to the limit'? Dave Emde does a helluva run down a mountain road on one..gets it to redline in 5th...great camera shots for the times. Stock out of the box, especially the early models, were so lean they wouldn't idle with the choke off and warmed up..
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Old 05-26-2004, 01:29 PM
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To be fast you must have heavy heavy watermelon sized kohones...

Rider and experience is all that matters, (boxercup?!!) any actual racer would smoke 99.9% percent of streetriders on either K12RS or R11S in deals gap- That said on a level playing field (if there is such a field) my money is on the R11S. -w/bolt ons-

Two roadracing friends of mine are challenging eachother this weekend at firebird raceway- one with more than a decade experience in AMA on a KTM Supermotard- the other with a little british racing background on a GSXR-750- short course- should be interesting.......the british guy is actually pretty nervous due to the experience of his rival-
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Old 05-27-2004, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Curve
Still trying to decide if this forum collectively feels that a R11S is quicker through Deals Gap, for instance, than a K12RS.
This type of discussion is what I like to call "Mental Masturbation". Doesn't accomplish any real goal other than to make you feel good.

BTW, the correct answer is "whichever bike JAS is riding".
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Old 05-27-2004, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherSquid
This type of discussion is what I like to call "Mental Masturbation". Doesn't accomplish any real goal other than to make you feel good.

BTW, the correct answer is "whichever bike JAS is crashing".
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Old 05-27-2004, 11:13 AM
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I have a question. If your BMW's are so poorly running in stock form then why buy one? I hate to be cheeky but I have a hard time understanding the big modification craze that seems to permeate throughout the motorcycling community. Having ridden many R1100S models thanks to kind friends and never noticed the poor fueling situations some of you are referring to. Also having ridden a stock model at the track I can say that it certainly isn't underpowered. The only bike I have modded has been my RC51 and only for racing purposes. Otherwise I would have left it stock, especially for the street. Most riders on the street don't use over 100 hp. I have usually used a 500 c.c. bike making 45 bhp for the street and had no issues.

Having read the article I would think that you guys/gals may find the recent article in SR of interest. It involves the tire dimensions and how they can affect dyno readings. Dyno tests while of some interest aren't everything as some have said here. I don't want to get into the obvious personality differences between Dr. Curve and many of you but I think if you read his initial post all he is doing is saying that alot of mods don't give you much.

Due to a seized bearing in my RC51 I had to get the motor redone under warranty. I decided at that time to get the motor work done. This was a $12,000.00 Canadian job that I got for $7,000.00. This included HRC HC pistons, port/polish, cams, full race exhuast, etc. All of this gave me a gain of less than 20 hp. On the track it was great but on the street it was unruly. It required more maintenance and was a tempermental b*tch. I'm not saying the Mfg's are perfect and that the fueling is perfect. We all know they keep them lean in order to get through emissions but I do think some of the claimed gains here are ridiculous.
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Old 05-28-2004, 07:09 AM
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Hi,

I've seen Jim make the same accusation (ridiculous claimed gains)
I'm curious which claims you find ridiculous (go ahead and name names)
With very very few exceptions, I see people claim about 2hp, which is hardly ridiculous for opening up intake, and exhaust, and de-leaning.
Eron's beast gains well over 10hp, but it was of course heavily modified, and I saw the results myself, so it hardly seems ridiculous.

What claims do the nay sayers find ridiculous, SPECIFICALLY, or are you all just trolling and carping. If so, trade your bikes for boats
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Old 05-28-2004, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC51DRAG
I have a question. If your BMW's are so poorly running in stock form then why buy one? I hate to be cheeky but I have a hard time understanding the big modification craze that seems to permeate throughout the motorcycling community. Having ridden many R1100S models thanks to kind friends and never noticed the poor fueling situations some of you are referring to. Also having ridden a stock model at the track I can say that it certainly isn't underpowered. The only bike I have modded has been my RC51 and only for racing purposes. Otherwise I would have left it stock, especially for the street. Most riders on the street don't use over 100 hp. I have usually used a 500 c.c. bike making 45 bhp for the street and had no issues.

Having read the article I would think that you guys/gals may find the recent article in SR of interest. It involves the tire dimensions and how they can affect dyno readings. Dyno tests while of some interest aren't everything as some have said here. I don't want to get into the obvious personality differences between Dr. Curve and many of you but I think if you read his initial post all he is doing is saying that alot of mods don't give you much.

Due to a seized bearing in my RC51 I had to get the motor redone under warranty. I decided at that time to get the motor work done. This was a $12,000.00 Canadian job that I got for $7,000.00. This included HRC HC pistons, port/polish, cams, full race exhuast, etc. All of this gave me a gain of less than 20 hp. On the track it was great but on the street it was unruly. It required more maintenance and was a tempermental b*tch. I'm not saying the Mfg's are perfect and that the fueling is perfect. We all know they keep them lean in order to get through emissions but I do think some of the claimed gains here are ridiculous.
I make mods to my bikes because it's fun, mostly... And, my goal is primarily weight reduction, which results in far more performance gains vis-a-vis sporty riding than a few HP does... Of course, the removal of the stock exhaust is one of the easiest ways to get rid of weight, so that's one of the first things I do... Adding 0HP and reducing weight by 15 pounds with an aftermarket exhaust and a K&N is really quite a good deal in my book... My LT is circa 50 pounds lighter than stock [Soon to be about 80 pounds lighter] and my RS about the same... I can tell you the weight reduction makes a huge difference in both cases... Of course, BMW's stock suspension is OK, and I never replace the stock shocks until they have served their life expectancy, but once they have, handling and ride improvements over the stock units are available through the aftermarket... I always do this as well... You won't find any chips in my bikes though, as they might result in a smoother throttle, but often the fuel mileage suffers... I know several K1200LT and K1200RS owners who have chipped their bikes and then gone back to the stock settup for this very reason...

Of course, I'm putting a K1200RS motor/Motronic chip in my LT, and that's not a smoke-and-mirrors gain there... Thirty HP at the crank is nothing to sneer at [Though, spending a couple of grand on a new motor and having the bike completely apart for several months may be ]... And then I'm building up an R1200C motor for the RS, which is going to be far more ridiculous money wise, but the HP gains will be real with ported and twin sparked Beta heads, RT cams, twin injector TB's, and the turbos...

A guy on another board that has a forum for mechanics said it best: "Sometimes the adventure is 'inside' the bike."...

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Old 05-28-2004, 09:08 AM
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In der head

Greetings Pep,

And some peoples twisted adventures are in their head....~!
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Old 05-28-2004, 10:05 AM
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Additionally....

Greetings Roger,

Good point!

Additionally, what gains are realized at lower RPMs?

I submit to you that those are the gains that are larger than 2 HP, for sure.

Have a great Memorial day weekend!
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Old 05-28-2004, 10:10 AM
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And that lower end is where the laser seems to shine. Better than my Ztech in that regards.

Good points you have there as well Robert. I spend more time between 3-6krpm than 5-8000. If peak hp were the primary concern, we'd be contracting PEP to graft aging CB600F2 motors from the late eighties in there I suppose it all depends on what you want to do with the bike.
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Old 05-28-2004, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by roger albert
If peak hp were the primary concern, we'd be contracting PEP to graft aging CB600F2 motors from the late eighties in there
When have I ever done a "peak hp" project on a Boxer?... Never... I have one planned, but it involves things like a 1200cc motor, ported twin-spark heads, dual-injector TB's, and turbos... Nothing from the late eighties... All I've ever done to my R-bike so far is reduce it's weight about 50 pounds under stock, and make the suspension kick ass...

You can go on and on an on about "tractability" or whatever, but basically you live in a dream world if you think you're getting any performance advantage from your LAZER or whatever that will give you an edge in any competitive situation that means anything... The only advantage to a LAZER that means anything significant at all is the weight reduction it gives you, and any subjective improvement in looks and sound you think you got... As far as any performance increase that matters, no aftermarket exhaust made anywhere by anybody for any bike on the planet does anything significant...

If you get inside the motor to change the fundamentals to make it perform better [As I changed the fundamantals of my bike's suspension and geometry to make it handle better], then an improved exhaust is one feature that will help you get the most out of those fundamental modifications... But any exhaust system by itself is meaningless; In fact, could even be detrimental...

How many know you need at least a freer flowing air filter with a freer flowing exhaust to make sure your valve temps stay happy?...
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Old 05-28-2004, 04:13 PM
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It is a fallacy to say that an exhaust can be either detrimental, or meaningless, but not benefical. An exhaust can either change things, or Not. Whichever you might believe is OK, but you can't believe it's some sort orf cosmic one way ratchet. This doesn't pass either engineering or common sense. We don't get it both ways in life. One might as well say jetting will have no effect, or make a mixture worse. Blanket statements are rarely valid.

As for that last sentence. ummmm......
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Old 05-28-2004, 05:00 PM
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I think PEP needs to spend a little more time with a good woman. And more time learning about fluid dynamics.
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Old 05-28-2004, 05:47 PM
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