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PEP PEP is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by roger albert
It is a fallacy to say that an exhaust can be either detrimental, or meaningless, but not benefical. An exhaust can either change things, or Not. Whichever you might believe is OK, but you can't believe it's some sort orf cosmic one way ratchet. This doesn't pass either engineering or common sense. We don't get it both ways in life. One might as well say jetting will have no effect, or make a mixture worse. Blanket statements are rarely valid.


An aftermarket exhaust will always give you a positive in the weight department [Since they are all lighter than stock], but a poorly designed one that is just thrown together might actually do less than no good at all... The best might give you 1-2HP... MCN pretty much nailed that to the wall...

Quote:
As for that last sentence. ummmm......
Interesting story, especially if you don't believe in coincidence... BWS was riding on the BRP one morning, and spied a well attired rider on an R1150RT... So, he decided he wanted to have a smoke and pulled over... "Just so happens" we were working on exhaust flow dynamics at the time... Did some crude experiments and were scratching our heads... Operating temps actually went up with a freer flowing exhaust on the K1200LT... So anyway, Brian strikes up a meaningless conversation with the dude, who he described as "stand-offish" at first... He eventually broke the ice, and engaged the guy in a conversation... Turns out he worked for BMW NA!... BWS explaned our confusion with lower backpressures vis-a-vis heat, and the guy pulled a burnt valve from an RT OUT OF HIS POCKET!!!... The gist of the story is that it came from an RT with an aftermarket exhaust that had gotten it's air filter clogged... The valve got burnt... The BMW NA GUY said, "If you run a lower backpressure, you need to free up the intake to make sure the valve temps stay down"... Of course, when you think about that, it makes perfect sense... But, how many do?...
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Old 05-29-2004, 01:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #161 (permalink)
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Mine runs better and has much nicer, super linear curves with all that stuff on board.
So i would like to do pistons and cams also, SJ,,,or is there a better resource????
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Old 05-29-2004, 06:34 AM
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I would be imbarassed drving a stock bike, but thats me.
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Old 05-29-2004, 06:35 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #163 (permalink)
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Cosmic Experieeeeeence....

Greetings Pep,

That was sure a cosmic experience. Valve in pocket. Speculation about how it failed.

BTW, MSF 101, do not have anything in your pockets that can hurt/kill you in a spill. I guess the BMW/NA guy's creditability was blown....

Basic thermodynamics tells us that rich mixtures cool engines (clogged air filter) and that free flowing aftermarket exhaust systems and free flowing intakes make the engines run hot, due to an overly lean mixture. You must have a correct air/fuel mixture. We all know BMW runs their engines too lean and that the motronic does not have a window of adjustability that would compliment these modifications. The power of the EPROM......

I have seen many burned valves and scorched cylinder walls on clients’ bikes in which the owners installed exhausts and intakes that were not engineered to work together synergistically. Further, they were not tested to insure compatibility. Guesswork is always just that, guesswork.

Your experience with installing the aftermarket exhaust system on the K fully illustrates the guesswork point. You can’t modify without testing. A correctly engineered exhaust system scavenges the spent exhaust gases and part of the incoming intake charge. In your "K" case, causing a lean mixture and the need for a denser air/fuel charge. Without the addition of a properly engineered EPROM chip for the motronic to provide the proper air/fuel mixture, you would have burned some valves too…. Balance is very important with the intake and exhaust tracts of an engine. Testing will insure that the correct A/F ratio is achieved, or you must reprogram the EPROM.

Some free advice:

1. Study Sir Harry Ricardo's work, The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine (multiple editions) and you will find it's unlikely you will do anything that's new.

2. Study Charles Fayette Taylor's two volumes The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice (M.I.T. Press) and realize for a second time it's unlikely you will do anything that's new.

3. Read anything that Smokey Yunick wrote...Then try to figure out what he did that he didn't write about. Smokey died May 2001 from complications related to Leukemia...he left us a three volume set of books covering his life, racing and inventions.

4. When Honda spends $500,000,000.00 on a racing engine try to pay attention to what they do. Don't ask them, they won't tell you anyway.

5. Most experts aren't.

6. Research is the difference between speculation and investment.

7. Just because someone goes fast doesn't mean you should do whatever you think they did. This path assumes they knew what they were doing, which isn't necessarily the case. Take this path and you will be guaranteed second place.

8. Test, Test, Test and then analyze.

As far as your comments regarding significant HP gains, we carry over 1800 LASER solutions for most motorcycle brands, from the new 2004 bikes to the cherished retros. They all produce more HP than the baseline stock. Not just peak HP but more importantly useable HP.

BMW BOXER SPECIFIC:
With just a LASER full system on a R1150R we gained increases of 11.73hp @ 6150RPM and an impressive 10.65hp @ 4250RPM.

Additionally, we are now working on a full system for the “S” in which the current prototypes show similar gains.

GENERIC:
RZF R1 LASER X-TREME
With just a slip-on LASER X-Treme exhaust we have a gain of 8.9HP @ 7300RPM an impressive 5.3HP @ 3850RPM and a 6.3 increase @ 13050RPM

ALL ABOVE TESTS REFLECT #’S OVER BASELINE. NO INTAKE MODIFICATIONS, NO TWEAKS.

THIS REFUTES YOUR CLAIM THAT:

“As far as any performance increase that matters, no aftermarket exhaust made anywhere by anybody for any bike on the planet does anything significant...”

LASER Engineering's goal is to produce systems that add power to that specific motorcycle.

BMW chose LASER by merit for the sponsorship of the BoxerCup series. BMW MotorSports offers exhaust system manufacturers the opportunity to sponsor the BC series. They must submit their systems for testing and evaluation. It was determined that LASER was the sponsor as the criteria (HP & lower lap times) was met and exceeded. Further, when Daytona was added to the BC series, BMW again asked for more power and again LASER won the sponsorship by merit (HP). Money is not a factor in determining this sponsorship; in fact LASER pays NO money to BMW to have their logo in the BC series bikes and the BC Replika. All they are required to do is to make their power enhancing systems available to the BC series teams at a fair price. This is a terrific testament to the ability (HP) of the LASER Engineering BC systems.



ANOTHER QUOTE FROM Pep THAT NEEDS ATTENTION:

“How many know you need at least a freer flowing air filter with a freer flowing exhaust to make sure your valve temps stay happy?...”

FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE MEMBERS HERE IT SHOULD READ:

“How many know you need a CORRECT AIR/FUEL MIXTURE to make sure your valve temps stay happy?...”

Guesswork does not make valves happy.
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Last edited by boxercup; 05-29-2004 at 11:28 AM..
Old 05-29-2004, 11:21 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #164 (permalink)
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Re: Cosmic Experieeeeeence....

Quote:
Originally posted by boxercup

Some free advice:

1. Study Sir Harry Ricardo's work, The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine (multiple editions) and you will find it's unlikely you will do anything that's new.

2. Study Charles Fayette Taylor's two volumes The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice (M.I.T. Press) and realize for a second time it's unlikely you will do anything that's new.

3. Read anything that Smokey Yunick wrote....
Maybe you should give credit to the sources you are quoting (stealing) from when you offer your 'free advice' Robert.

www.rbracing-rsr.com/secrets.htm
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Last edited by motoman; 05-29-2004 at 01:58 PM..
Old 05-29-2004, 01:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #165 (permalink)
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Robert,
I love it when you talk dirty,(air?).
For all of you out their just go fast and don't worry about it, life is too short.
talk to you soon Robert
CYA
Jeff
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Old 05-29-2004, 01:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #166 (permalink)
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Hey now, talking about SOLID BS.............well here it is. If I'm understanding correctly that the ONLY thing changed was the exhaust......then this takes the cake. If someone tries to sell you something with these claims........look out.

Prime BS as follows.......because this can not be duplicated on any dyno without hyping the graph.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

"BMW BOXER SPECIFIC:
With just a LASER full system on a R1150R we gained increases of 11.73hp @ 6150RPM and an impressive 10.65hp @ 4250RPM"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

The above is statement is in La La Land.......feel good figures from the "need to sells" among us.

These are exactly the kind of statements that led MCN to do the test that they did. MCN is not trying to sell you anything. They have nothing to gain or lose by snookering the results. NO EXHAUST SYSTEM being built today can give a R1150R a 10 HP increase ANYWHERE in the RPM range if that is the only mod.


Surely I am not reading this correctly. What else was done to the otherwise stock BMW to gain the 10HP? Laser came in with the cheap bids........BMW said OK. Good workmanship................but not the peak sustained useable HP gains touted. Don't fall for this gimmick.
Old 05-29-2004, 02:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #167 (permalink)
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Greetings Motoman,

I cite my source below for the following content of my earlier post:
George Gurrnell
In an e-mail dated 12/06/2002

"Some free advice:

1. Study Sir Harry Ricardo's work, The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine (multiple editions) and you will find it's unlikely you will do anything that's new.

2. Study Charles Fayette Taylor's two volumes The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice (M.I.T. Press) and realize for a second time it's unlikely you will do anything that's new.

3. Read anything that Smokey Yunick wrote...Then try to figure out what he did that he didn't write about. Smokey died May 2001 from complications related to Leukemia...he left us a three volume set of books covering his life, racing and inventions.

4. When Honda spends $500,000,000.00 on a racing engine try to pay attention to what they do. Don't ask them, they won't tell you anyway.

5. Most experts aren't.

6. Research is the difference between speculation and investment.

7. Just because someone goes fast doesn't mean you should do whatever you think they did. This path assumes they knew what they were doing, which isn't necessarily the case. Take this path and you will be guaranteed second place.

8. Test, Test, Test and then analyze."

Motoman, I see your point in your posted link that has the same content. It is my belief that Professor Gurnell is the author.

If he is not, I stand corrected.
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LASER Engineering Exhaust Systems
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Oakland Gardens, NY
Robert@FosterRAD.com
718-468-4680

Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.
Old 05-29-2004, 02:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #168 (permalink)
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Hmmmm....

Greetings Curve,

Nice work, you are consistent.

However, consistently wrong.

Your posts never fail to entertain.

"peak sustained useable HP"~?

I prefer user friendly HP, the kind that enthusiasts and racers alike really want. Low to high RPM power, not peak.

"peak sustained useable HP" is something I want for my vacuum cleaner or my HVAC system motor..

MCN, specifically Bill Shaw, did a great job on the article. It would have been helpful if he had also given specific power ratings at different RPM'S. But in his summary he again felt that useable HP is the key and chose the LASER BC-I system. The LASER system remained on his Replika after the testing.

As far as bids for the BoxerCup Series systems, there were none what so ever. Just for your edification, it was a selection by merit ONLY.

Funny though, the LASER systems (2) were the only performance options the BC teams had. Why did BMW choose to modify the BC series bikes with the LASER Engineering exhaust systems and a modified Motronic with a LASER PowerChip in it?

As far as the LASER systems being selected for the 2005 BoxerCup Replika, I personally was the bearer of the news from BMW Motorrad (BMW AG) to LASER Engineering in October 2003, that BMW wanted the LASER Twin Oval mufflers on the new Replika. Again, no bids.

Thanks for the entertainment!
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Robert Foster

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LASER Engineering Exhaust Systems
RapidBike USA
Oakland Gardens, NY
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718-468-4680

Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.

Last edited by boxercup; 05-29-2004 at 03:20 PM..
Old 05-29-2004, 03:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #169 (permalink)
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I will have a lot to say about this topic.

In about 1 month.
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Old 05-29-2004, 03:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #170 (permalink)
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This much fun must be illegal! ...

I'm just a tinkerer who works with another tinkerer... And he's only been a mechanic on a couple of motorcycle teams that held various bracket records in drag racing for, oh, a decade or so... We just try stuff and use what works... The LT's problems were solved with a K&N... Gave just a gnat's ass more freedom for the intake [Just a WAG on my part ], which worked out exactly as the now wholly discredited BMW NA guy said it would [Gosh, I cary an iPod in my pocket when I ride... A camera and a LIGHTER (gasp) as well!]... Didn't need a chip of any kind, because the EFI can adapt itself within reason... Dumping the CAT and adding a K&N is well within reason, evidently...

Your claims for HP gains with LAZER exhaust systems definately make my top ten list of stupidest things I've ever read on the internet... Deft management of backpressure will never give those results, except in the promo literature of a manufacturer...
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Old 05-29-2004, 04:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #171 (permalink)
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Cool

I doubt that a stock bike would misfire in a load/speed range that occurs on the EPA emissions test. Misfiring, in any form, can only hurt the emissions numbers. You are claiming BMW passes the test with their FI mapped so lean that it misfires? And this condition is reponsible for the poor throttle reponse the "stockers" have?

Perhaps we could clear up the original debate with some wideband A/F sensor measurements...JonyRR since you've already had an EGA on your bike, can you get some A/F data for us? Take a stock S and one with all the mods for a ride in the twisties and report back.

www.tuneyourengine.com has a decent sensor with logging for pretty cheap.

and if someone could point me to a speed trace or description of the EPA test that bikes have to run for the US/California market I'd appreciate it. I'm all too familiar with the 4-wheels test...

Quote:
Originally posted by JonyRR
I believe this was responsible for cleaning up the idle IN CONJUNCTION with the other cumulative changes that ameorilated the off-idle and lower-midrange lean condition, mandated by EPA. Doubters out there can observe this too-lean condition with an EGA...look at the idle co/hc and watch a condition known as 'lean misfire' the; HC needle swings back and forth as the machine hiccups ...the intermittant idle hunting that most of these do is a result of this lean misfire.
Old 05-29-2004, 07:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #172 (permalink)
 
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Motoman

Greetings Motoman,

Thanks for the site info>interesting content:

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/index.htm

Nestled among the tech stuff is an index called Eat *****, read it it is funny and pointed.

Pep, my claims are not from the manufacturer LASER, they are as experienced by me personally on my dyno. These figures are based upon many dyno runs of 4 R1150Rs that have the LASER full system (Complete system from the exhaust port to the muffler and a LASER PowerChip to match this system's requirements) and LASER HotCam muffler. Additionally, the same HP figures have been experienced by 3 other owners of this LASER R1150R system, when they had thier system dyno'ed at their local shop.

It is not deft management of backpressure, it is the necessary R&D to produce a "system" (pipes and chip) to make a difference. Much money was expended in the R&D of this system to accomplished this goal. LASER spared no expense. Credit to Van Harten BMW for the collaboration with LASER Engineering to get this project off the ground.

BTW, Pep, get a Rhinewest chip for your "K", you will not believe the difference....and No an I-Pod is not a valve....

Safety is your best friend.
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Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.

Last edited by boxercup; 05-30-2004 at 10:55 AM..
Old 05-30-2004, 07:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #173 (permalink)
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the misfires are typically at idle, which is outside most of the the epa cycle, but which beneficially affects the the very low throttle opening and cruise portions that figure prominently in the cycle.

But your'e right, too much misfire and the HC levels skyrocket, doing more harm there than is gained by Nx and CO reductions. Still, it happens. The carb'd EVO motors were notorious for idle misfire.
(one of the mags, quite a few years ago, measured something on the order of 1 misfire every 7 revolutions, on average, at idle.)
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Old 05-30-2004, 07:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #174 (permalink)
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Damien Pinder, a member on here and boxertrix (don't know if he still posts), have taken the R1100S from a stock setup to 100 rwhp with mods to intake, exhaust and fueling. He posted his project and results from dyno runs after every mod on boxertrix. I have added bits and bobs to mine until I was happy with how the bike responded. Much more can't be done without massive expense but that is not what I wanted. MCN is known as a weekly rag that if they predict the sun would shine tomorrow is to be taken with a pinch of salt. That is all I have to say about this very obvious editorial cock-up.
Old 05-31-2018, 06:12 AM
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You do realize you're responding to a 14 year old dead post, right?
Old 05-31-2018, 10:11 AM
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Where is that face palm emoji.......
Old 05-31-2018, 12:49 PM
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:15 PM
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