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-   -   MCN Test Of R11S Bolt On's Confirm Their Over Rating (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/163638-mcn-test-r11s-bolt-ons-confirm-their-over-rating.html)

Dr. Curve 05-18-2004 07:49 PM

MCN Test Of R11S Bolt On's Confirm Their Over Rating
 
To all the induct pushers, after market pipers, gause filter worshipers, and chip -will-fix-it-ers on this forum..................

What did you think of the Motorcycle Consumer News report on the aftermarket HP gains for R11S Bolt-on's in relation to what I, and several others, have been posting on the subject over the past year. It debunked the induct, K-N Filter, pipes, and chip, myths.........all in one fell swoop. Many of us who have messed with these engines over the years knew this to be the case and said so, myself included. Do you think that the forum here can recant their previous line of wheel lifting, exhaust sound enhanced seat of the pants gains, and wild HP Dyno figures that many of us know simply are not true.

I was pleased to see from the MCN piece that if cost is figured by HP gained..........then its cheaper and offers greater gain to put a set of pistons and cams in a R11S............... than it is to spend more money for less gain................like so many on this list have aspoused to.

MCM pulled no tricks in this test. The base machine, a dead stock R11S bike in perfect tune dynoed out at 89 RWHP and 67.5 foot pounds of torque. Even after four days of variables which included different ducts, different chips, different filters, and different pipes............the most they ever gained was with a ZTechnik exhaust, a stock chip, a K&N, and a SJ Induct...........and the massive gain accomplished with this expensive switch of parts, changes often touted by the wheeliers of this forum, was a boost in output to a mind boggling 90.1 RWHP and 68.9 foot pounds of torque.

Just like many of us have said all along, myself included, and taken the heat for it..............."Why do all this for a puny 1.1 Hp gain and 2.9 pounds of torque."

You can get more HP and Torque for less money by simply changing the pistons and leaving everything else stock, for instance. Simply adding cams......and not another thing is better than all the induct, gause filter, trick chip, open pipe mojo so often preached for our S units by the more vocal of this forum.

Of most value to me personally (True Joke) was the factual report that shows a Laser Exhaust, with a Laser Chip, a K&N, and a SJ Induct is content at yielding 86.3 HP and 66.3 Foot Pounds of Torque.

What a qimmick of products these suppliers have baited with...........and many on this forum have bitten.

I am now even more proud of my totally stock 99 S.........canister and all.

Highlander179 05-18-2004 07:55 PM

troll

BMWRider 05-18-2004 08:01 PM

Dr. Curve,

It's not about the dyno...screw the dyno....it doesn't take much to realize the S runs better with no catalytic converter and a decent set of pipes...everybody who has done these mods have posted how they noticed a difference in performance...including myself...boxercup will you please assist on this one...

Rider

Moybin 05-18-2004 08:09 PM

Are we talking about an obecalp effect here?

"I paid $$$ for these goodies, so it MUST be better. The ad told me it would be BETTER, so it MUST be better. It's going to be BETTER even if I have to delude myself! I tore my knuckles to heck, so it HAS to be BETTER!"

850dunstall 05-18-2004 10:34 PM

linK
 
so how about a link, can't seem to find any article ...

is this availalbe somewhere on the net? can't seem to find any reference to it on the www.mcnews site

c.l.

JonyRR 05-18-2004 10:54 PM

GAG!!! I (****, I can't believe I'm actually typing this) am actually agreeing with BMWwhiner, er rider, on this one. In OVER_THE_ROAD feel, throttle response, lack of surge and general improvement in how the motorcycle runs at any given throttle position/gear, the difference in my machine with a vanderlinde pipe and matching chip, K&N filter and what I felt was a major contributor to throttle response, nology coils and wires with non-resistor plugs; major, major improvement. And I did indeed quantify the before-and-after, as I did a very careful 0=0 tb adjust and TB synch and all the dealership juju (good friends of mine own Tacoma BMW and Big Fred said 'they all do that'...and I've known him for 30 years and he doesn't bull****) before I spent a penny on it; even after a hyper-careful tune, totally stock, my '99 S was a pig; pinging and surging and periodically stalling when the throttle was cracked from a standstill (a MAJOR no-no in Seattle traffic that'll get ya killed when some clueless soccermom on a cellphone runs you down from behind cause she's not paying attention). I don't doubt that I picked up maybe a HP, but the difference in the QUALITY of operation was astounding; depressing that I had to spend all that money to make it run like it should have out of the box; both Cascade BMW and Tacoma BMW said, when I had them look at it, 'this thing is perfect; nothing wrong with it at all...well, it RUNS noght-and-day better, and I would never accept the way it ran stock; stock out of the box it ran like crap. Now it doesn't...end of story for me. this next is OT; if BMW really has it together they wouldn't have put that abortion goat***k idrive in all the new cars....I will NEVER even consider one as long as that refugee from a failed DoD software upgrade is around, and I fear the 'benefits' of that approach will be foisted on the poor BMW motorcycle-buying public...beware OBDII for motorcycles; how bad will it be when the heat can download the last 90 seconds of hooliganisim from your scoot like they can with all OBDII-compliant cars...badbadbadbadbad...

Dan Alexander 05-19-2004 03:16 AM

I'm looking forward to reading the article. I agree with JonyRR about the 'over the road' feel of the bike before and after the mods I did. I had a check made out to me and my dealer because of an insurance claim and they just happened to have a Staintune sitting there that someone had ordered and backed out on. Gave me a great deal, and since it was found money I bought it. I was really looking forward to my first ride and was very dissapointed to feel no increase in power and in fact almost a loss, but it did rev quicker. I've gone down the list of mods like many here, including a BBPower chip, Lennie's Induct, SJ Power Filter and must say the bike really does run so much better than before. I'm always amazed at how strongly she pulls when the rev's get over 5 grand. It really is different than stock. Maybe this isn't dynoable but sure noticeable on the street, to me. I is a ton of money and not cost effective to be sure but I love my S's and if it makes it better then I'm happy.

Dr. Curve, I'm wondering if have you ridden a modded S and if you, yourself noticed any difference or not.

repoe3 05-19-2004 03:43 AM

any amount of money was worth getting rid of the ankle burner in the stock system...not to mention sound improvement, not to mention, top end HP was NOT the point of any upgraded part. my last S gained nearly 5 HP through out the range...where i would use it. sure it didnt gain much at peak, but i aint racing the damn thing!

i cant wait to see the article, having a time find a copy of MCN.

repoe3
who still think the doc is trying to convinve himself his stock bike is best for him...everyone now "DOC, YOUR BIKE IS PERFECT, YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T NEED THIS SITE AS MUCH AS WE DO."

rob_wijhenke 05-19-2004 04:31 AM

In favor of the Doctor, I have ridden many S's, some of them bone stock, some with pipes and chips and the odd K&N.

The first time I was surprised about the punch that some stockers have, one came close to my own (at the time) black S (with chip&pipes&K&N work, who was faster than my current red S pre-cams&pistons works).

The second one I rode had the pipes and chips work. It was much slower than my modified black S.

The other one I borrowed a few weeks back, when my red S was undergoing major surgery, had the cat eliminator and K&N. And it was REALLY fast. I mean fast. (not as fast as my $10k invested red S though).

My conclusion: all S's differ (BIG time). Some are slow stockers, some fast stockers. They all benefit from the mods used by us all. Indeed, cams and pistons make ALL the difference but also the pipes&chips work improve power. I have (seen) the graphs that proof that. The combination of all mods, as I have them now, are really impressive, unquestionable. I would consider the amount of cash you're willing to invest. If you do it all, like I did, it will cost you dearly. I would recommend the cams, pistons, cups&bolts, head and port flowing first, than chip, cat eliminator, cans, K&N and whatever I forgot.

Did I make sense here?

Dan Greene 05-19-2004 05:37 AM

Good one MOYBIN.

Kam 05-19-2004 06:10 AM

I thought riding a motorcycle was about the feel. I like my pipes of perfection and I won't give 'em back!

pdonnell 05-19-2004 06:51 AM

Troll!! Yea, I'll gut the engine with new internals....Screw the warranty.

EZ-RIDER 05-19-2004 07:02 AM

TROLL;

Look at my numbers Doctor!!!!!!!!!

Dr. Curve 05-19-2004 07:08 AM

Read the MCN article. They mention Pelican List specifically. They talk in terms of exploding the myth...........which they did. They did over 50 dyno runs in a four day controled period. Tough luck dreamers...........you may like the sound, the smoothness, the throttle response, ect..............but you most likely have less power than a stock unit....and if you have more .....its very LITTLE more. Face it. What a bunch of feel good, sound good, add on and "hope for the best," crap.

BMW Atlanta 05-19-2004 07:18 AM

Alright Curve,....... now youre getting it. You ride your butt up to my shop and take my bike out for the day,..........I gaurantee you'll change your view of the gains. I dont expect you to feel they are monetarily of good value,....but none the less I ride more "S" bikes in various states of tune then most anyone on here and I can give you a pretty good idea of what works and what doesnt.

And for the record,....my bike will kick your bike's butt hehehehehe.

The argument I pose for performance chips is simple. The factory has a set guideline for emmissions and various other parameters to meet on a bike with a catalytic converter. You remove the converter you now have more room for improvement. I would not own a stock R1100S period,....not a jab at BMW by any means as I have a hard time accepting any manufacturers OEM tune whether it be on my overly priced Powerstroke or Jeep Wrangler with 200k miles on the original motor. There are very few factory EFI's that dont need tweaking if youre at all a performance kinda person.

pdonnell 05-19-2004 07:24 AM

Dr. Troll,
You think S bikes come over from the fatherland optimally tuned irregardless of EPA and one bike for all riders considerations?
.
Go back to your crack pipe.

BMW Atlanta 05-19-2004 07:27 AM

To further this argument,....................the Boxer Cup race is a spec class race. Then why the aftermarket exhaust and super secret highly tweaked factory Motronic??????????????? If the stock set up is so superior, then why the upgraded equipment?????? I seem to remember you blasting me about the stock clutch sucking balls and you mandated that our bikes dont produce enough power to fail a BMW engineered stock clutch. Yet I was then commended when I broke the news that BMW had a new factory clutch going through R&D specifically engineered due to many failures during the boxer cup races. I feel that little incident mirrors whats going on here. Keep your bike stock, but it shows your "in the box" thinking when youre supposed to be the kind who thinks out of the box.

EZ-RIDER 05-19-2004 07:33 AM

Hey Troll;


Your F*ck up dude:mad: :mad: :mad:

GotRoad? 05-19-2004 07:45 AM

Now that's a highly articulate comment.

Lorenfb 05-19-2004 07:48 AM

Curve can produce a logical and data supported thread. Surprisely!
The responses are the same you see on the Porsche forum about chips.
I have for years discounted the value of chips and have indicated this
on my web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Technical & Problems pages.

pdonnell 05-19-2004 07:49 AM

BMW Atlanta,
Dr. Troll never really knows what he's talking about. As usual very good at spewing all over himself.

Firebolter 05-19-2004 08:27 AM

Ya know, I try to stay on the upside of things and try not to get personal, but since you started it................IDIOT.............

You read some article in some rag and that's the gosphel, because their perspective happens to agree with yours? The addition of a pipe and chip is not just about HP gains simpleton.....it is about cleaning up the throttle response to a bike that suffers greatly from the restrictions levied on the manufacturer by the EPA and other like org's in the rest of the world. My bone stock 2002 Prep was okay stock. Sounded like crap and was very lean on the bottom. With the addition of the Vandy pipe and chip it made the bike much more rideable in the lower rpm range. Not to mention totally cleaned up the throttle response. That was my motivation, not HP gains.....Like I can use or tell the difference in a 5hp gain...The bike was much more fun to ride, and didn't hesitate at all. And if you think that different pipes and chips don't make a difference, you are dumber than I think. repoe and I did side by side testing with our 2 prep's--his Tunes and a FIM, mine Vandy pipe and chip. He had more on top than I did, but mine pulled harder down low. You need to back up your assertions with data, not conjecture.

Man, just go get your K12S and ride off into the trollset, I mean sunset.

JonyRR 05-19-2004 08:45 AM

Again (and I will do my best to leave the venom out of any and all posts from now on as long as someone doesn't flame me first) this is NOT, repeat NOT about DYNOMOMETER numbers. The dyno doesn't lie, but neither does it reveal the whole truth; just as one can lie convincingly by using selected bits of truth out of context, just going on dyno results can be very misleading in 'the real world'. Like I said in my original post, My US spec '99 S, with 3800mi on it when I bought it, SUCKED in stock tune. I am not claiming to be the world's best wrench, but I had two different dealerships pronounce it 'within spec as per BMW'...hogwash!!!! the thing pinged and like I said, worst of all, would STALL at random when starting out from an idle. I could work around that by launching like I would my TZ250, but that's total rubbish for a supposedly-torquey streetbike. Dr. Curve and all that agree with the 'dyno-only' approach, if dyno results were all that mattered no big-bucks race teams would bother with track testing. the world if full of optimum real-world setups that don't jibe with dyno run results. Many, many times the cumulitive changes that produce the best all-round, over-the-road rideability are nowhere near what the dyno says is 'optimum'. The dyno is a SIMULATOR; granted a very sophisticated sim, and very, very useful for empirical data, but the real bottom line, for me, anyway, is the way my scoot runs out in the real world. Perfect example is the lennies induct you so decry; It seems to not produce dyno data to support it's performance, yet over-the-road gains seem to back up it's claim. At the end of the day, if someone is sastisfied with how their machine runs, that should be sufficient. I don't take your 'us pipe-and-chip-and-induct-people-are-fools' personally, but I like the way my scoot runs and that's the bottom line. I haven't degreed my cams yet, nor CC'd the heads; there's a world of performance awaiting a careful blueprint tune; mass horsepower comes and goes in just one or two degrees of camshaft timing advancement or retardation, just to name one variation out of a myriad of possibilities, and if cam timing didn't matter, velasco, zlock, fasola, ludington, plumlee, et al would not focus so much on the seemingly-insignificant details that yield such large cumulative gains. Peace, all; but my scoot ran like year-old dog feces stock and now it's a pleasant docile, reliably-idling, non surging machine (the way it SHOULD have been from the factory)

levert 05-19-2004 08:49 AM

So ?It was good I spent my extra money on a pair of Bitubos?

lemec 05-19-2004 09:09 AM

I'll echo what's been said, but from the perspective of car-tuning, which I do have some experience with (I'm a newb with the R11S, and mine's bone stock save for the K&N)... I upgraded my old Miata with a Racing Beat intake (K&N cone filter, less restrictive), free-flow cat, advanced the timing, and added a stainless sport exhaust with mandrel-bent tubing, blah blah blah... $$$ per HP was definitely NO VALUE (claimed 10 HP gain -- if true, not worth the $800 or so total cost), but the thing revved much more freely, had better throttle response, and just sounded sweet. Still not worth the $$$, but the thing was much more driveable. Sounds like people here have sought and achieved the same thing.

My R11S has this stall-from-idle thing happening too, and it sucks. If it's the evap cannister or "restrictive" breathing, I don't know, but I want it to stop! Is the exhaust the way to quell this? Should I ask Curve???

DCooper 05-19-2004 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Curve
Read the MCN article. They mention Pelican List specifically. They talk in terms of exploding the myth...........
I saw that line and thought Mr. Shaw was trying a little too hard . From my reading of all the pipe/chip posts here, I new very well that peak HP would not be the result. There are some outlandish claims, but you get used to who's post to ignore. By in large the reports on InDuct/filter/pipe/chip modes on this board seem to match the conclusions that Mr. Shaw made at the end of his article.

Besides he used the SJ inlet pipe instead of the InDuct and the bike he tested was not red.

BMWRider 05-19-2004 09:21 AM

lemec....i had some strange symptoms and my bike is brand spankin new...get K&N, chip, and exhaust....get rid of cat converter and canister...if you don't see and feel the difference i'll pay for the upgrades myself...(just kidding)

roger albert 05-19-2004 09:43 AM

Exploding Myth's indeed. Mr. Shaw's sensationalistic jargon was beneath his usual, and MCN's usual high levels. Still, the quantitative airbox pressure measurments were nicely done and of great merit. They also mirror what others have measured before. And it's a good, if incomplete and less-comprehensive than advertised article nonetheless.

Still, the conclusion was clearly that the duct and various enrichment options (including chip) offered very significant driveability and response improvements, and very moderate peak hp improvements. That squares nicely with what virtually every open minded, clear thinking and analyzing rider has noted or concluded themselves. Squares nicely with the Austin group's back-to-back, same-dyno, same-day (same hour) run of 5 different combination ran. Only one (Eron's bike) was outside of the 87 +/-1 HP range. His was 12HP up, but that included heads, plugging, intake, exhaust, cams, timing, and enrichment mods. Very extensive and not cheap, but VERY effective.

To argue pistons vs pipes seems uninformed, which I don't believe Jim is.
They both work together for the best effect. I can only conclude that Jim has an agenda, and is brighter, and possibly more reasonable than his posts show.

I note that Jim omitted the fact that the highest MCN tested peak HP DID have an enrichement device (and R259) even though that device did not happen to be a chip. It is a sign of the weak-minded, or the dogmatic-with-agenda'd, to pick and choose which facts from a given set suit your argument. I'd like to think, as a lesser of evils, that Jim belongs to the latter. The arguments as presented would however be ripped to shreds by a compentent 8th grade debate team. (or any reasoning group with many facts, and minimal preconceived motions)

I note further that Jim mentions InDucts by name, but doesn't note that that larger-flowing-product was not one tested. I yet further note that JIm does't differentiate between dyno readings and road hp. Shame on him. Glaring omissions from a learned academic. I'm glad my my 7th grade and subsequent teachers and professors, both in the engineering and language arts, set better examples for me. Perhaps when one works long enough in a purely subjective field, objectivity falls dormant. This is sad.

The airbox readings provided by Mr. Shaw are great indicators that the dyno and road readings are not likely well correlated. Kudos to him and MCN for an overall good test and article.

But, despite my many disagreements with Jim, I agree on at least one major point. Chips and Pipes and Ducts don't alone do a lot for peak HP on the Dyno, and only a little more on the road. Jim's dead right on that. If you sort the wheat from the chaff, I don't know any other posters or board members that disagree with him either. That's why it's hard to see why he's harping on the point. Perhaps because it's useful to educate the few new people who have unrealistically high expectations of chips and pipes. In that respect, Jim does the board a service. Credit where it's due I say.

I'm still bummed I missed a chance to have a beer with Jim a couple years ago, and still hope to do so in person one day. He seemed pretty cool on the phone.

Lastly, let's all try, again, to stay semi civil during all of this.

profWacko 05-19-2004 09:45 AM

You guys should read the article for yourselves. I quote:
"The San Jose BMW Superduct reduced the vacuum in the ariox by 1.2 inches of water as compared to a stock snorkel. The Powerfilter (with K&N) reduced it another 2.7 inches of water for a total net vacuum reduction of 3.9 inches of water. This translated into an improved throttle response on our test bike and accounts for the numerous positive "seat-of-the-pants" comments we read on the R1100S Tech Forum about larger inducts in general, and the San Jose BMW Powerfilter in general."

In other words, the induct swap improved the throttle response. AFAIK, dyno's cannot measure throttle response.

Meesa long time MCN subscriber. They are by far the most brutally honest reporters of things motorcycle that I have found so far.

Naturally, YMMV.

roger albert 05-19-2004 09:54 AM

good point. Read the article. All of it. Not just selected sentences such as Jim read. Jim, I'd be glad to throw in some cash towards some updated reading glasses. Since I'm just noticing my vision fade a bit at 40, I can imagine it must get worse over time. :) A mind is a terrible thing to waste - especially if mere glasses could help said mind get all the facts. :)
I'll offer to kick in the first 10 bucks :)
What's your address Jim? I'll even include a couple extra for a friendly pint on me.

take care
roger

JonyRR 05-19-2004 09:55 AM

And the stall-at-idle is just flat fricking DANGEROUS, not just an annoyance. I almost got pasted by an inattentatively-driven SUV in that exact scenario, and after that heart-stopping close call, I vowed to do whatever it took to cure that issue. My personal observation, and one that I haven't heard too much about here, is that a good, consistent, hot spark helps ignite the too-lean OEM FI mapping. My OEM BMW coils and wires were within resistance spec when I tested them, yet wouldn't fire a spark reliably gapped over about .030, and that was as atmospheric pressure, not inside a cylinder wherethe spark energy requirements are much higher. With nology coils and wires and NON-RESISTOR plugs gapped at .045, the visible spark produced looked blue and bright enough to arc-weld by. I believe this was responsible for cleaning up the idle IN CONJUNCTION with the other cumulative changes that ameorilated the off-idle and lower-midrange lean condition, mandated by EPA. Doubters out there can observe this too-lean condition with an EGA...look at the idle co/hc and watch a condition known as 'lean misfire' the; HC needle swings back and forth as the machine hiccups ...the intermittant idle hunting that most of these do is a result of this lean misfire.

roger albert 05-19-2004 10:04 AM

Very good input Jony.

I've always been a bit skeptical of significant improvement of power that some say these higher voltages can yield, especially and mostly when they claim it's a bunch and visible on the dyno.

I however totally agree that it is subjectively and objectively not just visible, but sometimes even obvious, on a very leanly set motor at idle.
I and a few others experimented with just that in the early days of the duc list. Britalia eventually offered a kit.

The effect is especially obvious on late model, carb'd, stock-lean-jetted HD EVO motors. (though the firing order and exhaust intake reversion make that motor much worse at idle) I once read a tech article where a stock such HD was shown to have, on average, a lean misfire once every seven revolutions, at idle. Yikes. No doubt that would have the needle swinging all over. Which gas(es) did you measure Jony?

Anyway, thanks for posting the info. Very informative.
Anyway, the same treatment helped my duc. Since I chipped the S, the idle has been enough better that I don't even normally think about it anymore (and maybe they vary a lot, as mine wasn't particularly bad to begin with)

Moki 05-19-2004 10:14 AM

Sounds like the Doctor is trying to justify keeping his bike stock. I, also have an unmolested 2003 prep. It runs lean but no other problems yet. I have gathered a whole bunch of tech info from this forum and plan on using them when the time comes to UPGRADE.

JonyRR 05-19-2004 11:15 AM

I was using a semi-obsolete 2-gas EGA that I bought from a yamaha shop (and it still wasn't cheap, I traded 'em a cherry XT200 straight up for it) after they upgraded to a 4-gas sun analyzer. For my purposes, HC and CO are all I care about, as, with my S, the cat is gone. the differences between .02 CO and 2.5 are incredible; ther's as you know, a corrolation between HC and co, and HC goes UP when the co is so lean there's a lean misfire (unburned hydrocarbons soar because there's a MISFIRE...too little mixture and insufficient spark to IGNITE the mixture present result in mass HC regardless of the csusal effect). My approach was multistep; enrich the mixture enough to have a sufficiently-rich mixture to combust reliably COUPLED with a mechanisim to IGNITE the mixture that's present.
the end result was what should have been, and in all honesty BMW probably COULDN'T make a machine that passed the f**ked up EPA rolling-road dyno SIMULATION that's required for US certification. Many manufacturers have come to grief trying to get their products EPA certified AND run even moderately well in the real world. The best of all possible worlds, dyno-wise, would be a rolling-road dyno, coupled with a 4-gas EGA, couple with a programmable-on-the-fly CPU, like the bucks-up teams have. Go to an AMA national, for example, and watch the big boys dial-in thier racers on the dyno roller; you'll see the EGA plugged into the headers and what they are watching on the monitor is NOT jsut power, but injectiion timing, injector bandwidth, HC, CO, and NOX, s well s specific fuel flow and the REAL measure or OVERALL efficincey, BMEP, brake mean exerted pressure; the higher BMEP, the more efficient the engine per pound of fuel burned; another byproduct of this is charastic of, all thinhgs an efficient harley engine (the best example) why do really-strong harleys always sound so loud? casue there's a bigger 'bang' going on for each combustion cycle; there IS a corrolation between efficiency, power, complete combustion per ignition cycle and pound of fuel used per work exerted. both kervin Cameron and Gordon Gennings have written on this subject extensively; I claim no expertise here over what I know has worked for me in the past, but when Yamaha first introduced the EGA to the motorcycle tech world in the early '80's (the first jap oem to do so by several years) I jumped on that bandwagon big-time as it was an impartial arbiter of what was happening in the combustion chamber (and all those early-epa-compliant UJMs were so lean stock they would barely run; I saw lean misfire every time I touched an XS11, for example, and all the carb synch's and plug changes in the world would do NO good when the idle mixture ega'd below .01% CO...as soon as I pulled the idle mixture plugs, did a careful synch, and set the CO to 3%, the thing ran perfectly, the cylinderhead temps LOWEReD by 150F measured with a spark plug temp thermocouple, cause the mixture was rich enough to both cool the combustion chamber and ignite fully with a stock ingnition system. the kart guys for years have run both EGT and cyl head temp guages and my TZ has exhaust gas guages...you can reliably tune a 4stroke with EGT. just my .02 worth, but I HAVE learned one or two things that improve my particular circumstances in 30 years of msispent youth. Your results may vary.

blakebird 05-19-2004 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by roger albert
It is a sign of the weak-minded, or the dogmatic-with-agenda'd, to pick and choose which facts from a given set suit your argument. I'd like to think, as a lesser of evils, that Jim belongs to the latter. The arguments as presented would however be ripped to shreds by a compentent 8th grade debate team. (or any reasoning group with many facts, and minimal preconceived motions)

I note further that Jim mentions InDucts by name, but doesn't note that that larger-flowing-product was not one tested. I yet further note that JIm does't differentiate between dyno readings and road hp. Shame on him. Glaring omissions from a learned academic. I'm glad my my 7th grade and subsequent teachers and professors, both in the engineering and language arts, set better examples for me. Perhaps when one works long enough in a purely subjective field, objectivity falls dormant. This is sad.


amen, bruddah....

Dr. Curve 05-19-2004 01:20 PM

I did not select anything accept the general findings of the MCN report. They used everything they could to get more HP with aftermarket goodies...........but it just could not be done. As I have always said.......real gains take real efforts. Pistons, rods, cams, ect. not the limp wrist, feel good, band aids that many of this forum continue to apply to their already very powerful bikes............sometimes adding a full one HP or so.

pdonnell 05-19-2004 01:26 PM

Dr. Troll,
Go away already....

profWacko 05-19-2004 01:35 PM

Meesathinkin the good Dr. should try riding his bike someplace besides the dyno, where the bike's reaction to throttle positions other than pinned might actually make a difference.

The differences noted by the MCN conclusions were that throttle response was improved and that overall engine response was smoother.

Here I go into the Department of Redundancy Department, but neither of these areas of improvement that MCN observed can be measured on a dyno.

These were the same things I noticed when I had a custom map made for the Power Commander I had installed on my Moto Guzzi V11 Le Mans. The peak power on the dyno showed only a small improvement, but the difference in RESPONSE was immediately noticeable when riding the motorcycle. It literally jumped out of turns with less throttle movement than before the map went in.

Peak power is not everything, unless you are drag racing or circle track racing. It's just the easiest thing to measure on a dyno.

"Fire away", he said, as he donned his flame-proof gear...

EZ-RIDER 05-19-2004 01:59 PM

Hey Johnny;

I am wondering when we get together for a ride, Could you hook-up
O2 Sensor, I am having problems with it wanting to Stall unless it is fully warm up, And sometimes coming to a stop light it will die.
With the Cams that I installed the bike likes to idle around 750 to 950
See where it's at and adjust the fuel mixture with the Power Commander!
Also do you have any info on the Coils and wires?


Tom Braccini

JonyRR 05-19-2004 02:07 PM

yeah, sure, with some advance notice I can get my ega; it's at my buddy danco's shop but it's still mine. the website for nology is, of course, www.nology.com. nology doesn't specifically list a COIL for our specific oilhead, but I swagged it and I used the PFC-30S coil (single lead unless you have a dualspark setup) and a hotwire long enough to reach from the coil to the plug. Measure your coil's primary resistance; make sure the nology coil matches; I just don't remember offhand here what the primary resistance was, but it was 'standard' for an inductive-type coil. the difference was staggering, at least for me. Did you degree your cams to the recommended value from the manufacturer? who did the cams?


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