Track Days & Hanging Off - semi OT

[roger albert]

OK, this is a bit off topic, since I did my last session on my disposable track-hawk rather than my S, but I'll ask anyway.

So, though recognizing the theoretical value, I've never been much of a hanger-offer, simply because I had enough clearance, and a beginner hanging off just slows themself down (saw plenty of that at the track) Only time I've bothered even a half-assed job was on my old /2 with it's very low mufflers which a bit expensive to scrape up.

Anyway, this weekend I ended ups scraping thing, mostly on the right side, even though the hawk is riding about 2 inches higher than stock at the rear, and the footpegs are a bit higher than stock too. Guess it's time to learn.

So, I know it will be controversial, but I'm open to tips from any of you quick guys on how to ease onesself into it and gain more from the Cg shift than I lose in stability by flopping my carcass around. How did you all make the transition. Any body / arm / weight placement and movements tips welcome.

Remember, type slow. I'm an engineer and mech, not a racer.
Thanks
Roger

btw, it is a TON of fun to pass 70-120hp bikes with my little 40hp unit, even if the other folks are also beginners. Also got by 2 Group B guys who rode down with us in C the last session. I'm so bummed the track season is over here now. I'm still plenty slow, mind you, but it's nice not to be the slowest anymore. YES!

[SparkyBlue]

Hi Roger; I think it's best to shift in small amounts gradually increasing the distance you move to the inside. It sounds weird but try to keep your weight on the outside peg. Your bike will take less effort to turn, and with less bike lean. Don't think about dragging knees, it's overrated.

Also, position your body before actually initiating the turn, and be light on the handlebars. If you try to move mid turn, it could upset the bike.

[Nitro]

"Don't think about dragging knees, it's overrated."

No it's not.

Knee dragging accomplishes MAINLY two things: it straigten up the bike and gives you a meter of traction.

When I used to race I knew the NEAR limit of my tires by the position of my knees. Leaning more, hence the knee going in more towards the tank, was calling for skipping or a low side. I had found the sweet spot: touch the ground, push more to retract the knee about 4" and stop.

Place your butt's crack right on the edge of the seat. Anchor the outside knee to the gas tank. Free the other leg and place the ball of the inside foot on the peg. Lean your torso over the gas tank. Lean. If you lean far enough you'll find the knee touching the ground without any effort.

Also I dragg knees on the street as well. Why? When I do so I leave about 1/2 " of fresh rubber on the sides of the rear tire. When I'm tired of moving around the seat I noticed I used the whole patch, not a good thing on the street.

As for the S, not being a race machine, when my knees touch the ground I stop pushing. I found this technique to leave me a decent deal of margin of safety, i.e. I could lean a bit more or hit a bit the brakes in case of an emergency.

By the way the S is spectacular at high lean angles! As solid as it gets.

[JonyRR]

roger; back in 'the day' here's what a few of the folks and I did; (no, this is not simple, but very informative) have both a front and a rear stand that lifts the bike off the ground completely. Borrow beg or buy 2 ea wheel scales (like the roundy-round folks do to set weight and stagger on their cars) put a scale under each stand (with the bike on the stand) get on the scoot. get in your normal riding position and have your assistant note the weight ON EACH SCALE (this tells you where you're at weight-transfer wise front to back as a starting point) slowly move around, back and forth and side to side; do this in small increments, noting the weight shift and transfer for each body move. then, once you understand how small movements fore-and-aft affect total loading on each wheel and you see where the differences shift around at, start developing your 'hang off' technique on the stationary machine (much harder than it looks as you have no gyro effect or centrifugal force to help keep you in place, as well as being a dynamite isometric exercise to get you in shape for the hangoff in a real life situation). then, once you have done this enough to repeat it in your sleep (muscle memory) take that technique to the track and refine it for your particular style. I guarantee you the scale-weiqht-shift demo will surprise you with how such a small physical position change produces large gain or loss at each end's scale. als, just hanging off in the same fore-to-aft position changes the front-to-back balance more than you'd suspect. The faster you are going, of course, the more noticable those seemingly 'small' changes occur, and the best racers seem to process those weight shifts mentally even before the machine responds (what roberts sr. used to refer as 'being ahead of the bike') it sounds like hokum, but try it and I think you'll be surprised at the results. Besides, it 's highly amusing when the sig. other sees grown men climbing around on a mo'sikkle on track stands balanced on scales, with assistants intently noting values on a pad, all the while making (back then) TZ250-type noises in full riding gear. Get the video and serve drinks afterward, but I'll bet it helps...

[repoe3]

Originally posted by roger albert
btw, it is a TON of fun to pass 70-120hp bikes with my little 40hp unit, even if the other folks are also beginners. Also got by 2 Group B guys who rode down with us in C the last session. I'm so bummed the track season is over here now. I'm still plenty slow, mind you, but it's nice not to be the slowest anymore. YES!

it feels great to be bumped...thats for sure. but then you start at the back of the pack again and work your way up.

as for body position. when learning the track and lines, i get overly animated with my movements while traveling at a slower pace to engrain the lean angle and body position in my brain. then i can do it faster, smoother once i am more comfortable with the actual track. still rarely drage a knee, but i know if i do, i am pushing it. smooth and steady first with good body position then the rest follows as you dont have to think so much about it and you can then think about going fast(er).

repoe3

[JonyRR]

and the very lucid explanantion above of WHY hanging off is good, even on the street, is valid. If I hang off a bit I have some room for error with each tire's traction area, and I don't run the tire over to the 'chicken strips' (I call 'em 'common sense indicators')..if you run your tire to the absolute edge on the road on a consistent basis, you're a braver person than me, gunga din..

[RonC]

Everyone has their own opinion so here's my view on hanging off: It is a safety measure!!

When you shift the center of gravity of man/machine toward the inside of the turn, you need less lean angle for a given combination of turn radius and speed. I am no physicist, but it seems to me that there are two forces, gravity (acting downward) and centrifugal force (acting horizontally). The resultant (combination of the forces) needs to go through a line between the two contact patches. Or so I imagine.

As speed increases (or the turn radius decreases), the horizontal component increases. So you lean more or you hang off more or both. Keeping the resultant where it belongs.

If you can use less lean angle -- by handing off more -- you buy yourself more ground clearance. Always a plus! Also, I am told that induced drag, which is a consumer of traction, increases as lean angle increases. Again, less angle is a plus!

So, hanging off looks cool and buys you safety. Hey, works for me!

[Daniel Restrepo]

read twist of the wrist along with all this good advice. i found it very useful

[roger albert]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll try and see what I can absorb.
I hadn't thought of practicing the position with the bike standing, but it's not bad. Plus, if I hang off the whole time, I can save time by not bicycling anymore, right

I'm listening the the AudioCDs of both Twist and Another Twist (or whatever it's called) Seemed like a good idea, as I'm going to the Foale-seminar and Code-school right before thanksgiving anyway. Wanna be prepped as I can, as I'd imagine most of the students in the on-bike portion of the class will be a lot more advanced than I am. It's all a bit intimidating.

and darn it, I'm gonna look like such a poser practicing on the street.
The shame.

[brad black]

move your shoulders off the bike in the direction of the turn, and let your lower follow. if you use the top inner thigh as a support on the tank it should all be one smooth offward movement.

that's wah ti remember, i haven't done a track day for 4 1/2 years now.

[roger albert]

Smooth eh?

That's the rub for me so far Guess practice make perfect.
Someone else once pointed out the shoulder dropping advice,
and it's helped me a great deal even when not particularly hanging off -- whenever I've remembered to actually do it anyway
Thanks for hitting me with that again. The iteration is good for me.

[motoyoyo]

Everybody has there own riding style. I've seen guys ride at a blistering fast pace without hanging off at all, and others hang off to the extreme and go slow. I think RonC had a good point about the safety aspect of body positioning. The biggest benefit in hanging a part of your body mass off the bike in turns on the street is the added control you get. It is much easier to change lines in a turn if you have your body mass offset from the centerline of the bike.

With relaxed elbows you can easily push or pull the bike away or towards your body mass and be able to negotiate fast turns much more relaxed and be able to handle road variables better. Sitting straight with the bike in turns really limits your ability to change from a committed line. I have never felt the need to touch a knee down yet, but I'm all over the bike in the turns. The point about keeping some weight on the outside peg is good too. Helps keep everthing very stable and makes for better transitions to the next turn.

[repoe3]

and lift yer butt a tad when sliding around so as to minimze or eliminate unsettling the chassis when hustling threw a series of turns.

repoe3

[Moybin]

Originally posted by motoyoyo
... The biggest benefit in hanging a part of your body mass off the bike in turns on the street is the added control you get...

If you get a jackass cage tailgating you (as I have had) it is a wonderful way to scrape them off. Find a good technically demanding turn and enter it at well above the speed the cage can negotiate the turn safely at. Hang off, pull around the turn nice and smooth, check rear view mirrors for panic stricken, I-just-*****-myself lemming cage operator. If he/she is still even on the pavement with you.

Mine was a bypass entry that you can't take much above 35 in a cage; I did it at about 47 mph, posted speed limit is 45. Cage just disappeared (into adjacent cow pasture, I believe).

[Nitro]

THE CAGE

[ckcarr]

My theory on speed limits: Whatever it is, you can double it!

[Nitro]

My theory on speed limits: Whatever it is, you can double it

"Cough" triple it "cough cough"

[TaberahKJ]

The double rule works great if you don't know the road. Triple works if you've been down it quite a few times.

[Moybin]

Double, triple... None of them outrun the radio. Of course, in some of those deep river canyons out West the radio don't work all that great anyway. Same for cellphones... another reason to move back West!

[brad black]

one of the drills in level one of the superbike school course is to ride around flapping your elbows like a chicken. you should be able to it during any part of the track, and you can. makes a huge difference having relaxed elbows..

the shoulder things helps keep your head pointing the right way too.