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Roger, BMWAtlanta, an actual technical question(s)

I'm a couple of weeks away from yarding my S apart for an extensive winter service. It's got 22K on it now, it's been pampered for service, and flogged hard for use. I'll be pulling it completely apart because I want to check everything, use loctite everywhere and bacasue I'm an anal-retentive target-fixated idiot, and I don't like midnight equipment failures 38mi out of bf egypt.
My questions:
the tranny will be out for an aggressive-material clutch reline
has anyone ever had a custom hi-performance, balanced driveshaft built like all the roundy-round cars use
who in the bmw motorcycle-wrenching world in the US is an EXPERT transmission rebuilder, if any.
I want to do a process called microplating (super-thin, super-hard, super-slippery nickle-teflon coating) on at least the input shaft and maybe all the gearbox components. perhaps undercut the engagement dogs...the proverbial 'blueprint'. maybe even shorten up the shifter throw a bit by juggeling lever length and angle
If I had a jericho or super t-10 tranny for my winston cup car, there are 4 places that blueprint and customize manual transmissions in just such a fashion, b ut it probably doesn't esist for getrag boxes, but I thought I'd ask;

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Old 12-03-2004, 08:55 AM
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These are only guesses, but maybe Bob's BMW in Maryland or Blue Moon Cycle in Georgia?
Old 12-03-2004, 09:45 AM
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Yikes,

All good things, but I don't know the answer. Look in the classifieds in RRW&T for someone to do the gear cutting. I'm not sure about the coating, but strongly believe freqeuent lubing will do far more from you.
The problem is, w/o a qualified process, flaking coatings with their bits of hardened particles can do a LOT more damage than good. One sees that in all kinds of tooling. Race teams can use ultra high buck suppliers, and also dont' really care how the surface holds up over years, but rather just some nominal, but relatively small number of races. If you can find some convincing info, don't let me lead you too far astray, but just keep in mind that though race-parts usually handle peak loads better, those parts and process might not be better, and in some cases are worse, for regular many-cyle kind of wear. Wish I could help more, but I'm in over my head on the specifics. Fwiw, I'm not sure of the value of balancing such a short driveshaft in general, nor one with a rubber damper mechanism where the ends are virtually by definition, not concentric. Great idea for a long solid shaft, but not so much for a short floppy one. I think that's more easily addressed in humans than beemers.
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Old 12-03-2004, 11:59 AM
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Yeah,..........what Roger said, he's so good with words. Stock driveshaft is probably the best suited for the task unless you double the hp somehow. The clutch relining works,......however expect odd behavior for the first 1000 or so miles while it breaks in. It will be very susceptible to glazing over in the first 1000 miles, youll then have to baby it for a bit and one day it will just hook and go like a bat out of hell. As for microplating the tranny, alot of expense and potentially little benefit over just changing your tranny fluid very frequently. Short of being employed by NASA,...I would find it hard to source out a company capable of the quality you would need for life long use.
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:06 PM
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Thanks for the input, I do appreciate where you both are coming from, and as usual, I'm out on a limb here of my own creating. I have already found the company that does the microplating process, in fact the word is a trademark of theirs, and they have lots of empirical data on how thier coating holds up; it's reliable for several 1000's of hours in M1A2 transmissions so I think an S getrag box won't challange it too much.
Looks like I'll be the lab rat for this; whether I actually do this or not depends on whether I really pull the gearbox apart to it's discrete components (talk is cheap, even my talk *grin*), but it's a great theory, eh? (we all know what happens when theory runs hard into reality....it's that sound of a distant explosion!!)
I will report on progress here when I yard it apart, but I AM going to reline the clutch, at a minimum, instead of spending 3X the money for something that will just slip again.
the driveline aspect was just brainstorming; the car guys swear by a one-off balanced shaft with super-good u-joints, and the reports of exploding joints ehre made me think of this, but that will be the last thing I do in this process.
I'll keep us posted...
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:42 PM
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Have you thought about doing any cryo treatments on the tranny/clutch parts?

There are guys I know who have worked on mega$$ race cars that used cryo treatments to reduce friction and wear on lots of hard parts.

And you thought cryo treatments were just for trombones...

>8]
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Old 12-03-2004, 02:18 PM
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Jony,
A comment or two and maybe a contact.

Take a peek at the various drag racing sites AHMDRA, Prostar, etc. There are companies in that world that do things like undercut transmissions. Ditto the micro-plating although here I would like to offer a comment/opinion.

The problem that manifests on the BMW clutch disc and transmission splines is not your ordinary corrosion, nor is it one of sliding friction. It is something called fretting corrosion that occurs when two similar materials are subject to impact type loads or very short stroke repeating loads at high frequency. Think large combustion pulses here spread over relative long times due to 180 degree crank and only two cylinders. The big problem is this can occur even in an oil bath. Changing the surface hardness of the input shaft might prevent the shaft wear at the cost of the clutch disc becoming the sacrificial part. Cheaper, but not solving the problem.

Micro-plating the interior components might make more sense but, I don't think, nor have I heard of, failure of gear surfaces has been a problem. You can probably gain 80% of the benefit just by changing to Red Line Shockproof gear oil. Bobby's father put some of that stuff in my GS Adventure tranny and I have to say its magic.

As to the drive shaft, stay with the stocker. I tried a welded up and lengthened version on a K100 turbo bike a few years back. Not the best idea I ever had. A good deal more vibration, even with a precision balance and assembly and the shock loads eventually took out the pinion bearing.

Ed
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Old 12-03-2004, 02:22 PM
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very lucid observations here, shovel; thanks.
I know about prostar&fast by gast. I've undercut gear dogs before in the past myself and i'm not afraid to do it again.
the only reason I'd microplate the whole xmission is I'd have it apart and it probably won't be to much more expensive to do all the pieces than it would to do just the xmission input shaft.
I'm already running redline shockproof and it DID make the tranny shift better, although not QUITE as smooth as a japsikkle.
I'm familiar with the definition of 'fretting' and your explanation seems to jibe with the engineering text's description. I'm inclined to do the input shaft because, as you pointed out, it's better to frag the clutch disc center spline area than the shaft. the 'power pulse type' would explain why this isn't as prevalant a problem with a v-8 type engine and dry clutch as it is with a 180-opposed twin. there's no complete cure for the fretting phenomonon outside of adding a couple-a cylinders; I'm trying to 'bandaid' it to the point where the point of failure goes somewhere else and is long enough between service intrevals it's not as much of an annoyance as it would be every 20K or so. We'll see....
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Old 12-03-2004, 02:49 PM
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i just googled these guys and wasn't surprised to see they're still going strong. http://www.kalgard.com

they used to coat, then bake all our engine "internals" for race bikes.
they'll wave their magic wand over just about any component ('cept for clutch stuff).
their system works very well and unlike full-on race applications it also lasts forever, in my experience.

and while you've got your "real" bike torn apart, grab a dual-sport scoot and buzz over to your nearby Olympia Forest (watermelon trail, if possible). while you're there tell it i said hi, and i'm still really sorry about crashing out that tree.

...brad
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Old 12-03-2004, 03:09 PM
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Brad;
I'm very familiar with kalgard also. My plan is to microplate the input shaft and kalgard the clutch disc spline area so both sliding surfaces are antifriction coated. I spent big bucks kalgarding my GS1000S crankcases and cylinder/cylhead assy lo those many years ago just like Ulrich described in the article on Pop's real deal (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery)
How much money did we spend buying those kihien 31MM CR carbs....god, I wish I had some of that cash back...
My KTM 380 2-stroke has a license plate..I even rode it down the freeway this summer in the cascade mountains..if you ever make it back up here, the trails in the cascades are far superior to olympia/capitol forest; almost as good as colorado, just not quite the elevation
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Old 12-03-2004, 03:25 PM
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by design, the splines on the clutch disc are already the weak link. We had a scenario this week where a customer had a clutch rebuilt on an RT a couple months ago and has put a few thousand very very hard miles on the bike (aka ABUSE) and the splines on the disc simply ground away while the input shaft on the tranny is still within spec on an R1100RT with 50k on it. I could not believe how bad this clutch disc looked only after a few thousand miles,.......and I thought I was hard on my toys, this guy takes the cake.
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Old 12-04-2004, 05:15 AM
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Bobby,

What were the RT guy's riding habits that trashed the clutch so thoroughly in a few thousand? Stop and go city stuff, high heat? Lived on a big azz hill? What up?

Thanks
Phil
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Old 12-04-2004, 12:06 PM
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JonyRR

I think one of the two factors to fretting corrosion is the similar alloy thing. By microplating the input shaft you create dissimilar metals in contact with each other. That, alone, will cut down on the erosion. What is "really" happening is microscopic cold welding, then the weld point shatters, leaving a rougher surface. This is also called "galling" when dealing with stainless steel against stainless steel. This is happeinging thousands of times, right at the crystalline level of the metals. Galling can cold weld two stainless parts, like a valve stem and theyoke nut, together as solidly as if they had a couple of tack welds.

Think of it like this: how easy is it to weld aluminum to steel, or copper to iron? Don't work well. But two pieces of the same metal will bond to each other with very little energy input.
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Old 12-04-2004, 03:28 PM
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Question

Quote:
Originally posted by shovelstrokeed
You can probably gain 80% of the benefit just by changing to Red Line Shockproof gear oil. Bobby's father put some of that stuff in my GS Adventure tranny and I have to say its magic.
Ed
Which Redline ShockProof Gear Oil was installed, Ed? ...if you know.
.
SuperLight ShockProof™ Gear Oil - Similar to a 75W90 gear oil but lower internal friction similar to that of an ATF.
.
LightWeight ShockProof™ Gear Oil - Similar to a 75W140 gear oil, but with the lower internal friction of an SAE 30 motor oil.
.
Heavy ShockProof™ Gear Oil - Similar to a 75W250 grade, while providing the same low fluid friction as an SAE 75W90.
.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_gearlubricants.asp?pvID=85&prodID=61&subcatID=20
.
Thank you.
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Old 12-04-2004, 05:19 PM
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Don,
I'm pretty sure it was the Superlight. Its what I just bought for my S as well. The S tranny is still a little better with the stock BMW synthetic in it than the GS with the RedLine. I honestly don't expect the same level of improvement. Any little bit will help.

Ed

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Old 12-04-2004, 05:46 PM
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