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BMC Air filter

Has anyone tried a BMC air filter? I saw them in the Tucker Rocky book at work today and wondered why they were $40 more than the K&N.
Old 09-08-2005, 07:40 PM
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Feel good stuff. The stock air filter element, if kept clean, will flow more than 400% of the air this motor requires. Some have noticed a pretty good improvment in driveability by replacing the intake snorkel. The stock filter is fine.
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Old 09-09-2005, 02:12 AM
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BMC as with a K&N is nice as they are washable/reusable. so forget any hype as a filter is a filter, but if you like the idea of not having to continually buy new paper filters then do it.

repoe3
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Old 09-09-2005, 02:40 AM
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I'm so tired of this round and round and here is the reason for the flame.

The intake system is closed from one end to the other. That is from the intake valve to the tip of the intake snorkel. Threfore, at one end you have atmospheric pressure, at the other, you have some level of vacuum, depending on the timing during the valve open period and even, since the system will integrate out the valve closed periods, for any rate of air flow in the duct, at some point the pressure will be between those two extremes of pressure. It must. Now, depending on where in the duct you measure, you might notice different pressures. Again, the only reliable way to measure those pressures is with a static pressure probe. It is by comparison of the static pressure to the flow generated pressure that flow in a duct is measured. Changes in static pressure are not necessarily indicatative of changes in flow. Some inference may be drawn from changes in static pressure meaured at the same point, but, without the velocity and cross sectional area data, a simple open pipe in the duct is meaningless.

At least 4 differemt back to back dyno tests have been run with the stock air filter and each time taping off more and more area of the filter. At only 25% ol the filter exposed, no difference in HP or torque was measured. The stock filter provides more than adequate flow for the engine. The washable foam acheives its flow at the expense of abillity to filter.
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Old 09-09-2005, 12:47 PM
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The obvious is you don't know what you are talking about.

"the static pressure data is clear as the nose on your face."
You never measured static pressure and apparantly don't understand the term.

"simple fact that the smaller the vacuum the peppier the engine"
That term is meaninless. How about some quantatative data. What consititues proper vacuum? Define peppy.

"nobody argues that vacuum is good or that there is some optimum vacuum for EFI."
Care to explain that? What would be the optinmum vacuum? Does it differ from the optimum vacuum for carbs? Must be some special number known only to armchair scientists.

"is no linear loss of power"
It was neither linear nor was it curved, there was no loss of power. Another BS term pulled out of your narrow butt.

As to the Kleenex, not quite, it was, in fact Saran Wrap. I would suppose a human factors phsycologist or whatever could at least tell the difference there. Its kinda like what you use to shine you shoes, Shinola being the preferred medium.

We are not even going to talk about you flying in the face of all the accepted means of measurement of air flow in ducts. You have yet to even provide anyone with data that shows YOUR improvements have made any significant changes even according to your spurious methods.

If it were not for the fact that some gullible people might be fooled into thinking your ramblings had some validity I would simply consider you another self aggrandizing harmless fool. Don't ever expect that I will let up.
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Old 09-09-2005, 01:43 PM
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Ben, I'll respond when you answer my questions above.

Suffice that from the link you gave, you picked the media that filters the worst when new and is subject to collapse when clogged. It by the way is also true that if the downstream side demands no more, a larger filter will be of no help.

Keep in mind also that pleated paper filter surface area is quite a bit larger than the physical size of the filter would indicate. Also that the OEM filter is only slightly smaller than the filter on my 295 HP 540i.
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Last edited by shovelstrokeed; 09-09-2005 at 06:19 PM..
Old 09-09-2005, 06:10 PM
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I figure it out. The BMC Filter is more expensive because the plastic part is painted Ferrari red.
Old 09-09-2005, 06:43 PM
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Ok,

Enough.

Go and cut the rubber ring from a stock filter and lay it out on the ground.

Calculate the area of this and then measure it against any other filter available.

The is a guy here in Queensland known for his BMW work and in particular his tuning work even to the point he has experience fitting turbos to BMWs.

He has states that the stock R1100S filter will flow enough air for a 5 litre GM V8 engine.

I don't know how you guys will ever agree, so just accept you have different opinions and leave it at that.

Ben, Ed has been around the board for a long time and knows his stuff.

As you have said before, when you ask me a question I am quite helpful.

I have a lot of respect for Ed and I think that negative slaging of a respected board member is less than acceptable.

There is a large amount of disk space taken up with technical discussions about the S and there are plenty where I have had a say. I am not an expert and managed to get good results by applying normal tuning pricipals the the R1100S.

People are amazed that you could and would do this to a BMW. It is just another engine and I might even make the point it is half a VW or half a Lycoming aircraft engine. So why would normal tuning principles not apply.

Enough of my .02, I am outta here to go do my Karting.
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Old 09-10-2005, 03:20 PM
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' half a VW or half a Lycoming aircraft engine'

or maybe a third of an aircooled porche 911 (that's what keeps my S company in my cramped garage)....the carport's home to the 530I and RoadRhino, the wife's supercharged dodge ram 4X4 (never piss off a tiny blonde in a big black truck, 'specially if she has a pearl-handled .357 in her purse)

the salient point I totally agree with the gentleman from Down Under (and Florida) is, and engine's an engine's and engine. I've heard the rant that a pleated-gauze K&N-style filter passes more dirt than oiled foam. that's why there's an oiled-foam filter in my KTM...it's a DIRT bike, ridden in the dirt. there's a pleated-gauze K&N in my STREET bike, which does NOT live it's life in a dust storm.
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Old 09-10-2005, 11:17 PM
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JonyRR,

thanks for the heads up about your wife in regards to the truck and what she stores in her purse.

I am glad I live down under and not many blondes get to pack either kind of fire power.
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Old 09-11-2005, 01:29 AM
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ben, if nothing else, i'll give ya this much: you're impressively consistent.

ed...you should know better. shame on you for throwing logic, fact and physics into the mix. you should be flogged for muddling up this whole thread with common sense.

i have the stock and the k&n filter. i've bounced back and forth between the two. doesn't seem to make a wit's worth of difference.

as jony points out, dirt bike guys mess with filters a lot. some use motor oil for regular days, baby oil for really dusty days, and crappy bel-ray filter oil for rainy days. you put grease or vaseline on the mouth of the filter, depending on the weather. there's two and three stage filter elements out there, along with filter tear-offs and such.

street bikes? seems like ya put the filter in and ride. about the only thing that's gonna make a noticable difference is the shop rag you forgot to take out of the snorkel on reassembly.
other than that, my bike doesn't seem to care if it's breathing through stock or K&N...it's still slow.
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Old 09-11-2005, 07:02 AM
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Let's try and get civil guys.
Any posts then get into the name-calling are getting cut.
Yes, I know that that mostly comes from one person.
Thus, those are gone.
No more please.
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Old 09-12-2005, 07:13 AM
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hey shovel~
if they had the filter 75% covered, and still no difference in HP or torque, do you know how much farther they had to choke that thing before it starting going down on its knees?
compared to high-revving UJMs, this twin seems like it barely needs oxygen at all.
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Old 09-12-2005, 07:27 AM
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an ON-topic observation; just attended out local vintage deal-e-o (Isle of Vashon and man did I want that cool red vincent 'black prince').
Most of the high-bucks vintage iron ran NO air filter, (of course there were mostly no air filters stock OEM on 'em back then) and the barbeque/coucours/field meet was at the end of a 3/4 mi dirt road (yes, that's a contradiction on the face of it, a concours at the end of a dirt road in a dirt field, but that's the VME for ya *grin*). What exposed air filters there were, were K&N type. some guy with a parilla had a nylon over the end of the velocity stack. And a bee buzzing entrapped in the nylon. Does a bee add horsepower? like a dose of 'oxidizer'?
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Old 09-12-2005, 07:32 AM
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man, i'd forgotten about that nylons thing! i've seen fotos where some of those guys used some really, um...creative things to hold it in place. condoms were their latex version of a swiss army knife.

i think they had wire mesh at the bottom of the velicity stack too, because for some dirt racing, they used to stuff a whole nylon in there, then cap it off on the wide side with the condom.

end of a dirt road, eh? thank god the guy in charge ain't no heart surgeon.
"okay, i'm done. time to finally wash my hands now."
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Old 09-12-2005, 07:41 AM
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More on topic

This guy is a lot smarter than I will get in this lifetime. He also works in the automotive industry as a real life engineer. He gives freely of his expertise, in the pirit of most here.

A quote below.


Tests run about 3 or 4 years ago using Saran Wrap on the stock paper filter showed no drop in HP with 75% of the stock filter blocked off so more flow is hardly needed.



In a similar vein: IIRC, someone did dyno runs with the air filter completely removed, and there was no measurable improvement in performance (as compared with having the stock paper filter in place).

Here's a piece I posted here on K&N a while back:
================================================== ==========
The stock air filter does not cause any significant restriction to airflow; IOW, there's no performance advantage to be gained by using K&N. Their own flow bench testing (here, chart halfway down the page) shows that their filter flows more air than a comparable paper filter under the same pressure drop (see test conditions here), but a flow bench doesn't accurately reflect what's happening in an engine, where (for constant load and speed) each filter will have its own flow rate and pressure drop.

But without bothering to get into too much detail about that, you can see from their results that the K&N filter clearly is better. How much better?

Not much. Here's a rough estimate.

Take their test results I linked to above. Their round filter used in the test results there, E-1500, looks like it might be suitable for a 5.0 liter V8 engine. At 6000 RPM, a naturally-aspirated 5 liter engine is moving approximately 530 cubic feet per minute of air. Their chart showed the paper filter moved about that much air with a pressure drop of 1.5 inches of water; that's a mere 0.0542 psi. If you put their filter in and scale the flow (shown on the chart) and pressure drop back accordingly, the expected pressure drop would be about half of that, i.e. 0.0271 psi. So with manifold pressure increased by 0.0271 psi, the air density - and hence, power output - increase accordingly. Switching to a K&N filter would give you a net performance increase of:

0.0271/14.7 = 0.184 percent.

If you removed the filter element altogether, allowing the engine to breathe unfiltered air, you might expect an improvement in power output of approximately 0.37 percent. Note also that these improvements are only at conditions of maximum airflow; at lower RPM, the performance improvement is even smaller.

You'll notice that K&N have scrupulously avoided showing any comparisons of actual engine performance with paper filters vs. K&N filters. This is because they'd show you exactly what I've just described, i.e. a negligible improvement in performance. If you're a professional racer, certainly you'll take every competitive advantage you can get - especially if the product is free, and they're giving you sponsorship money on top of that - but you're not going to notice 0.18 percent when you're running Deal's Gap.

Regarding filtration quality, they brag about their superior filtration (efficiencies close to 99% at the relevant particle size), but the most they'll say about paper filters is that they've seen "some disposable paper air filters with an overall filtration efficiency as low as 93%." Again, if the K&N is so much better, why not present data on some of the leading aftermarket filter makers (as well as OEM)? More to the point, how often do modern engines fail because of inadequate air filtration? If my bike will make it to 250,000 miles on plain old Beemer paper air filters, then there's really nothing to be gained by investing additional money in improved filtration.

And FWIW, some here have complained about poor filtration by K&N (evidenced by an airbox caked with grime), and the hassle of re-oiling the filter element at the recommended intervals.

Lifetime cost? Can't find info for BMW filters, but Jeg's lists a K&N for my 2003 Nissan Maxima at $44, and I can probably buy a paper filter locally for $10. The change interval for the paper element is 30,000 miles which means the break-even point is 120,000 miles. The car came new with a paper filter, so I would wait until 30K miles before getting a K&N, and then have to run 120,000 miles after that to break even, a total of 150,000 miles. Am I gonna keep the car that long? Not likely. K&N filter for my car, then, wouldn't make economic sense; I'll wager the same is true for just about any vehicle out there.

Anyone know how much a K&N costs for an 1100RT?

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Old 09-12-2005, 07:44 AM
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bold AND all upper case.
good lord. the man should be fined. or flogged. or both.

ben: when you type in all upper case, its often interpreted as SHOUTING.
i'm not even sure what bold and upper case is, but it's a notch above shouting.
thank god for the mouse with the scroll wheel.
it allows one to zip right past the rants.
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Old 09-12-2005, 08:02 AM
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Well,
Like others smarter than I have no doubt already done, he just made my ignore list. Rant away, Ben. I think you have invented a whole new branch of engineering, call it, if you will, New Wave Engineering, where buzz words and feel good phrasing take the place of real world measurement. Kinda like the current administration's stance on global warming.

Ah well, the fledglings will just have to look out for themselves.

As to the bully thing, since you're the only one who seems to think you are correct, maybe its paranoia? Or a Napolean problem? Are you a wee little guy? Did the other kids pick on you when you were younger? See, I can get all touchy feely too, just not about things that can be measured in the real world.

Good day to you, sir. I have to say, its been fun pushing your buttons.

Sorry Roger, if this is out of line, just pull the plug.
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Old 09-12-2005, 08:15 AM
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Hey Brad- I just picked up some red cork tape and a slinky. Doing anything this weekend?
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Old 09-12-2005, 08:37 AM
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steve~
ARE WE GOING TO BE DOING THAT AGAIN THIS WEEKEND?

shovel~ thanks for the tip, i'd forgotten all about that!! how come they don't have one in real life? a "go back" button would be very handy too.
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Old 09-12-2005, 08:43 AM
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