A/F meters: LM1 VS K&N, etc

[JonyRR]

OK, all.
Has anyone here (chime in anytime, acid, baybeee) actually BOUGHT and USED an LM-1 A/F meter? it's over a hunnert-fitty-dollah more than a K&N...is it worth it to log the data and do you actually examine the data afterwards?
i'm gonna use my unused bung (I KNOW all kinds of smartazz comments are just percolatin' in you heads, chillen) for the A/F meter's 02 sensor to actually see where the under-load, real-world A/F mixture of my S is; it runs great, gets good gas mileage, etc, etc, but only by actually sniffing trhe exhaust under real-world conditions can I know how close or off the mixture is. If it's still significantly lean, I can work around that. If it's significantly rich, I gotta think about that one.
Any boarders aftually have an AF meter on thier scoots?
feedback, anyone? thanks...
and BTW: I wish an 02 sensor could take being exposed to fuel 'additives' but there's none I know of that can deal with tolune, xylene, nitromethane, propelyene oxide, if anyone knows of a technology that CAN, let them speak up..please..to my knowledge, ANY type of oxygen sensor is poisoned by anything other than unleaded gasoline fuel. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Ed (I know you will)

[shovelstrokeed]

Piece o' cake.

Don't screw around with O2 sensors. The narrow band ones are more or less useless. The wide band ones STILL don't really tell you what you need to know, which is the real world conditions in the combustion chamber.

Simple technology is sometimes best here. 'Speshully with an air cooled motor like our beloved donkey bikes.

I would weld a couple of thermometer wells in the exhaust pipes right near the head and get a fast acting thermistor type temperature sensor in there. A little light cirucuitry and you have EGT. A couple hundred bucks worth of stuff and you have a data logger that will talk to a PC through a USB port. Used laptop PC's with the capabilities to run the software that comes with the DAQ hardware are only a few more hundred. Now you have the nuts. EGT doesn't lag combustion by all that much with a fast sensor. RPM can easily be plotted against EGT and its almost a direct correlation between temperature and mixture.

1200F=rich and good power. 1400F=near stochiometric. 1600F is lean and on the verge of hurting something. All the pro stock bike and pro mod guys use EGT as a tuning indicator. Even the top fuel guys do it and log it. Of course, the fuel additive thing does change the temps quite a bit. : grin :

[roger albert]

The LM1 and K&N aren't even vaguely the same thing.
A testlight and DMM with datalogging would be closer, even as far apart as they are.

The K&N just flickers back and forth with mixture, and slowly at that.
The LM1 responds rapidly, tracks O2 vs rpm or anything else you might wish via 5 user selectable inputs and logs it for playback and analysis on a pc. There are comparison and smoothing functions. Also, accelerometers and dash displays and good tech forums and white papers.

The K&N is cheap, but the LM1 offers a LOT more value.
The two devices are not even in the same league.
I'm in the process of constructing a quick connect TPS pigtail for mine.

And if you like Ed's EGT idea, then simply take a couple such thermisters and run them into the extra A/D inputs on the LM1. Then you can log how they relate to rpm, tps, and O2.

EGT and O2 are both worthwhile targets for your DAQ.

[shovelstrokeed]

That actually sounds like the best of both worlds.

I got used to working with EGT as a tuning aid on the turbo K. Even the slow sensor I originally had really told the tale.

I dismissed the LM-1 out of hand, there may be more there than I thought. Off to the web site for some more reading.

[JonyRR]

I have experience with EGT
Had a twin-probe kart setup for my TZ a while back and it was useful. thanks for the info on the K&N. I was hoping to get something nearing realtime, but it sounds like I need to go back and revisit EGT.
BTW, Ed, 1250-1275 was always the temp Mr. TZ liked best for plug color and it pulled the tallest gearing as well as the hardest out of corners with that EGT.
Looks like I'm going back to the EGT setup, and I even know where to buy the parts.
Good winter project putting the thermocouple bungs in the headers, and I'll get 'em jet-hot coated while I'm at it.
(I guess there's a reason aviation engines display EGT and not A/F, you joggled my brain back to some important but forgotten-by-me information)
I've got plenty of work laptops to go in a backpack to log data.
Rog, you have an LM-1, then I take it?
Which model?
How do you have it set up?
thanks...

[captainasty]

Hey guys can somebody please measure there venture adaptor tube. I was running tests on my LT and the #@%n thing came off at about 80. The O2 sensor is fine and the bent tube, but the straight one came off. So, if somebody can measure their's then I can make a new tube. Thanks

[roger albert]

Just basic LM1 with rpm/aux-adapter.
I only have a few Lambda-vs-rpm plots and decided to wait until I had TPS to bother further. Too hard to interpret otherwise. I just cut apart an old TPS and harness a couple weeks ago. Not easy,and if your'e not careful, they are ruined (even though I'm just using them for a plug/harness so I have a quick on/off data adapter.. It's not a front burner project compared to suspension and track stuff, and the local kart track just opened up to minimotards, so I expect to spend more time with the XR100 than the data for a month or so.

[brad black]

where does one buy the egt stuff?

there's an small issue too with the lm1 type wide band sensors in that they can get too hot. i think the lm1 site says at least 18" from the head. just something to be aware of. they're not like the bosch sensors you can run 3" from the port. not that it's a big issue, we did all the staintune testing on my s with a probe back in the collector. probably more relevant as they only have one map anyway. on a ducati when you're doing main and offset maps you really need to be upstream from the collector, and the 18" thing is a bit of an issue - the headers aren't that long.

[Eron Flory]

I would look here first for EGT sensors and data logging.
http://www.aimsports.com/products/mychron3-basic/index.html
They have quite a few options for auto, motorcycle and karting applications.

[bigscience]

If you want something more DIY to mount on the bike check here:

http://www.frostalarm.com/cat/hindex.html

stick with the avionics stuff, it's life and death tested and looks cool.

[JonyRR]

it looks like I'm going to fab something with off-the-shelf thermocouples and I'm still looking for a (preferably) LCD or LED display that will switch between left and right cylinders, so I don't have to use two gauges. On my TZ, I used a digitron twin-readout with switching(one each cylinder for EGT, one for rpm) and it was powered off the CDI.
On my S, since it'll be a permanent install, I want something small and clean-looking (bad enough to have the wires from the probes sticking out of the headers visible to the world), preferably that switches from one side to the other.
Buying the thermocouples is simple, but I haven't found a readout head I like yet...

[JonyRR]

might have to go with that mychron3 and stick it on my tankbag next to the radar detector and GPS. Newest trend: extra real estate area on the tankbag to mount all the electronics the modern sikkle can't do without...

[JonyRR]

'there's more computing power on the top of my tankbag than inside the entire space shuttle'...
next up...EMP pulse generator pointing backwards in the soft tailbag *just kidding just kidding*

[acidburn]

i like my LM1, use it now and then will maybe get more time to use it more this winter, Roger is your best resource here, he is very familiar and after all its the guys area of expertise as an Engineer if i recall correclty.
Reads quickly tells you where you are, good instruement.

[JonyRR]

Thanks Eron;
This looks like the hot setup, even better than my digitron was!
http://www.aimsports.com/products/mychron3-basic2T/index.html