Pelican Parts Forums - Cornering technique

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Cornering technique

In a previous post found here, I stated the following:

Quote:

I'm by no means an expert, but in cornering I generally do the following assuming that you are headed into the turn with a full head of steam:

1. Set my body position.

2. Identify my turn-in point (as best you can at this point - sometimes on a blind turn you have to wait until after steps 3/4). Some people teach you to identify brake markers. On this point I follow Code's advice and identify the turn-in, which will naturally show you where you need to start braking from, assuming you have your speed and braking abilities judged correctly (not to mention surface conditions).

3. Initiate braking.

4. Downshift to the apprpriate gear (with intermitten blips of the throttle as necessary to avoid upsetting the chassis). Once finishing downshifting, I generally get back on a light throttle if possible - sometimes not. This is an area where I need a little clarification on the proper method.

5. Identify the turn apex - it's best to do this while you are still going straight if possible. The idea is to get a late apex turn so you see where the turn opens to before you actually start turning. Mind you that you should still be keeping an eye, or at least a feel for, the turn-in point.

6. Once I "feel" that I've hit my turn-in point, I initiate the turn. Assuming it's a left, I'll push hard with the left arm. Once you do that, then BOTH arms should go loose. The bike is inherently stable, and will continue on the path that you set for it. Let it do it's thing. Loose arms also let the suspension absorb road irregularities better than stiff arms.

7. Once I'm near the apex, I begin feeding in more throttle as appropriate for the situation. Again, you still have to keep a loose arm or the throttle input will alter your steering course.

8. Begin straightening the bike while increasing throttle and shifting as necessary.

9. Resume regular body position.

10. Just a note on trail braking. You can feed throttle during your turn-in while you are still braking. Just be careful as you only have so much traction with the front tire. You likely can't be braking hard while you turn in hard. You should be able to lightly brake while you turn-in, however.

Also, on the track I never use the rear brake. All my braking is done with the front only.

That's as best as I can recall now. Perhaps others will chime in with more thoughts. Hope that helps.

I recently did a couple of classes with Keith Code and have refined my technique a little. They taught me to get on the throttle much earlier than I was. I'm now trying to get back on the throttle right after I initiate my turn in, way before the apex. This accomplished two things for me. One is the obvious, exit speed. Tremendously increased my speed coming out of a corner. Second was my stiffness. Because I was always concerned with the transition from off throtte to on throttle, I was tensing up from the turn in point to the apex, causing me to run wide and thus requiring a lower speed. By getting on the throttle, I don't have to be tense and worry about it. That also sets the suspension earlier, which is a side benefit.

Just thought I'd share. Don't have lap times to prove it helps, but I know I was much faster as I got better at it.

Pictures to follow as soon as I get them.

You must be doing something right. I tried to catch you when we were on the track but couldn't keep up. You were riding strong as far as I could tell. I learn more and more each time I take one of the Code classes. Great fun too.

This is strictly for the road, but one thing I slightly differently is in identifying the turn apex (No. 5). First, I do try to anticipate the angle of the apex and the exit prior to turn-in (to set proper entry speed), but you may not be able to truly see the apex prior to turn-in, so this step may be a waste. Instead (as least where vision is limited), I try to imagine the apex and exit in my head (based on terrain, missing trees, telephone poles, etc.) rather than trying to actually "see" it.

Also, I find I can carve a much smoother arc if I don't necessarily think of the apex as a single point, but as a "sliding" apex that keeps moving forward until I can finally see the turn exit. If you look for a single apex in a limited vision situation (the road), your corner may wind up being a series of turns rather than a smooth arc.

Quote:

Originally posted by John Lyon
If you look for a single apex in a limited vision situation (the road), your corner may wind up being a series of turns rather than a smooth arc.

This is probably one of the hardest things for me to do. I've been trained to look for a single apex point in any turn (car stuff) and there are very few turns on the various racetracks I've been on that have 'ambiguous' apex points (T8 and WillowSprings - Talladega at Buttonwillow). I'll try this new technique, maybe it'll inspire me to get on the throttle a little earlier.

yeah, they don't teach it in an MSF class, but the throttle is key to making it through a turn at speed. I use the rear tire, by way of the throttle to get through a corner as much as counter-steering.

MSF teaches that throtle is necessary in a turn primarily because as the bike leans over it begins riding on a part of the tire that has less radius than if upright.....less radius means more rpm needed to maintain speed, thus for the bike to be able to maintain constant speed and not get all discombubalated as it is leaned over one should add a bit of juice while cornering....

Yes adding throttle though the turn works...but, if it's a blind curve and suddenly it becomes a decreasing radius curve...you just might be in real big trouble with a capital "T".

I've abandoned all this "settled chassis" business and try to be able to do anything as needed with Throttle, Clutch, Brakes, and Body "English" while in the curve.

On the track you can hone your approach to a curve and find the best line, entry speed, etc...on the road there's always a surprise in store...be ready to change your body stance, line, throttle input, gradually put on the brakes, whatever it takes because it's gonna happen.

Road Apples, Pea Gravel, Road Kill, "insert your line changing hazard of choice"...they all add a kind of "drama" that's the spice of riding quickly on a curvy road versus the controlled environment of a track.

If I'm finding myself too fast in a curve I gently let off the throttle (engine braking effect) and gently apply rear brake first, then add front as I sense there's traction available...I don't really know how to tell you that I sense traction availability but it just takes years of experience. On the other hand, sometimes road conditions (wet, muddy, slippery) don't allow any braking and you have to just let engine braking do the job.

sorry guys, this early throttle technique was really meant for a track situation. i should have been clearer.

John, you're right about the attack angle of the turn. I should have probably mentioned someting about that. You do want to try to get in a correct attitude for turning. For example, if it's a left, you don't want to be coming into the turn from the left toward the right. Ideally, you'd be "set up" and would be sliding a little toward the left as you enter the turn in point.

Hey, there's lots of green guys out there chasing a yellow one. Kawasaki the sponsor?

How was VIR? I'll be up there in a few weeks for the CLASS school.

Thanks,

John, Yes, the Code school runs Kawi's. I brought my own bike instead since it's cheaper that way.

Jim, VIR is nice, but I had a hard time getting used to it. Lots of blind turns and elevation change. You'll enjoy it.

I am planning on being at Pocono to run the FUSA course on the 14th with Team Pro-Motion.

You Joisey guys should come out and play, it is a great layout.

14th huh, maybe? doubtful as it's a weekday though.

...that whole "suspension thingy" is funny business... for the longest time I was fiddling around with the suspension on my 748 and could not get it right.... the I went to Buttonwillow for a track day and Dave Moss (the Suspension Wizzard) was there... paid him $20 and he worked the first half of the day to convert my 748 from a "Chopper" to a race bike... turns out that he adjusted the suspension in a way I would have never thought for it to work... way, way hard. Yet, the second half of the day, I was so confortable that I did not even think about it anymore and now I am so "suspension desensitized" that I hop on my Sportster, the Beemer or any of the Ducatis and just ride...

A lot of it happens between the ears, I think and the more you ride, the more it becomes second nature... I have a 20 break in riding motorcycles and clearly, the yoounger folks or the ones that never stopped have an advantage, but as I put more and more miles on my bikes, I keep getting better again...

Yet - AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF IT ALL!!! - I always have fun, no matter what!

Keep the rubber side down, folks... I am going riding now!

I'll be at pocono this weekend, Saturday, with Team Pro-Motion, Sunday, with Spotbike Track Time. I'll have to talk to the YetiBoss about getting the 14th off...

Quote:

Originally posted by gigantic
I'll be at pocono this weekend, Saturday, with Team Pro-Motion, Sunday, with Spotbike Track Time. I'll have to talk to the YetiBoss about getting the 14th off...

I am sure Yeti needs to show up as a control rider a few more times this year to keep in good standing, and of corse he will need an assistant.................Hope to see you there.

I may also be going to Barber in November for a two day event to finish out the year.

What day was the pictures taken at pocono.

I was at poconos august 13. I had and amazing day however by the end I pushed the bike a bit too much in one of the turns after the bus stop and I high sided the bike. As result I spent 3 days in hospital and now I am home from work for another month. I fracture my left side of my pelvis. The positive part of it is that I have a 2 month vacation from work and since I have unlimited sick days from work there is nothing that I have to be concerned. Here is a small picture of me at the track.
:D :D http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157426374.jpg

...ah yes, the ominous last session! Often I skip that one... long day, tired... you want to push it one more time... KaBooom...

Get better quick, eduard... hospital and sick leave afterwards are never a good combination... best wishes!

Sorry to hear Eduard, get well soon.

Although not a sure thing, I try to avoid pushing harder and just work on riding smoother which seems to make me faster..........along with a little luck so far so good.