The new VFR...

Chris Geuting · 03-20-2007, 07:27 AM

Another interesing article from this months BIKE magazine.A comparo between the former best bike of the world according to the british press,the Honda VFR and the new BMW F800...They really liked the new BMW;the engine had more power and was more flexible all the way up to 8500 rpm to give up only 12 hp on top.30%! better fuel mileage.No expensive VTEC valve adjustments.90 lbs lighter.Handling,comfort,wind protection on par or better.No crap/dangerous linked rear brake that also stops the front in situations you don't want to.Clean and low maintenance belt trumps the chain.The new VFR is a BMW twin.The VFR is dead long live the F800...!
I don't think I'll trade my R1100S on one but it feels good.Really comfortable 60 lbs lighter is not bad either but I miss the protective gear as the cylinders sticking out left and right.I forgot the Honda has bigger bags...;-)
Maykes you wonder what BIKE would have said if the would have stuck the R1200S engine into the F800S because the seat is still great and a nice luggage rack and practical centerstand from the F800ST as also slightly taller windshield is easy to fit,too...
I still like the boxers but the F800S in yellow or red is pretty nice too and better than the migty VFR,high praise indeed!
Same performance as our R1100S twins...but lighter but also,"only" a parallel twin no boxer that can save legs and bike in a mishap...
Chris

Chris Geuting · 03-20-2007, 10:35 AM

Forgot to mention BIKE had the (V)F(R)800 ST version in the article...
Same as the F800S except for a slightly taller handlebar instead of the clip-ons and stock luggage rack,back mounts,centerstand as also a slightly taller windshield and lower fairing.I personally like the S version better (looks) as it is already comfortable enough even with the narrower slightly lower clip-ons...
If I had to replace my R1100S today I would decide between a R1200R and the F800S or buy another used R1100S...but I really want the R1200S,maybe one day when the options list gets longer...;-))
Chris

718Rider · 03-20-2007, 11:46 AM

I read that article in BIKE and I'm itching to test ride one of those new F800's. I doubt I'll buy one b/c the price point is just too high for a new one. You can get a lot of bike for 11K. If these F bikes were priced closer the the F650s then I'd be alot more interested.

MaineRoads · 03-20-2007, 11:57 AM

$11K? The ST I saw was 13K the way it was shipped. Sales said it could be had for 12600. Those base prices don't exist.

throttlemeister · throttlemeister's Garage

The F800 looks very very cheap next to a VFR. The VFR is an excellent bike and nothing the F800 series do will change that.

As far as the linked brakes, only an idiot that never tried them will classify them as dangerous. For starters, you don't notice them. Second you can use the back brake without engaging the front. Not a lot, but enough for in turn corrections. And last but not least they are excellent stoppers. The 1998 version on the VFR significantly outperformed the CBR900RR and R1 brakes at the time in a test, much to the suprise of the testers.

It's the same BS discussion as the powered brakes on BMW. Everybody is parrotting each other on how bad they are after a few rags needed something to whine about, while in my experience these brakes give plenty feedback, are finely tuneable even at low speed and make your eyes pop out of your skull if you really throw the binders. I guess one of them rag testers lacks fine motorcontrol in his fingers and before you know it everybody is repeating each other.

themarsman2k · themarsman2k's Garage

...for the first time at Ft. Myers BMW. they are both great looking. the ST, fully loaded with bags was just over 15K, yikes !! The S was around 13K, I beleive. That is a lot of cash, but I still would like to test ride one. The full line of new singles was also in display in the show room...very nice too! Still longing for a black R1200S, though.

Chris Geuting · 03-20-2007, 01:53 PM

Throttlemeister,you are wrong.The VTEC-VFR front brakes always come on if you use front or back brake.Like on the XX very unnerving in some situations.
As you mentioned I also read the F800 looking cheap.I don't think it looks cheap at all and every bit as nice as a R1200S.
The only thing cheap but like most other bikes too (except for RR replicas) is the non adjustable front.But it felt stiff enough otherwise there are alreay wilbers springs available as also a better sounding exhaust that makes a boxer like noise.I don't care about VFR's and if you like them,fine.But you can't deny that the VFR is heavy and complex and expensive to maintain.And the F800 is a much simpler,lighter bike.If you get more out of less beating the former VFR-benchmark that is always better in my book and this kind of simplicity of less is more drew me to BMW's in first place.I will try it but I think I will always stay with the boxer.
I think the passive safety those cylinders give you is one advantage I sure would hate to miss as also the boxer engine itself being the BMW trademark.But for people who can do or did without the on paper rather unexciting F800 looks like a great addition to the motorcycle market.I thought it would be a SV650 beater but now even the mighty VFR,I was surprised...
The money,probably somewhere 13K out the door for a ABS,bagged,rack and centerstand F800 is sure dough.But the $$$ is only getting weaker and what are the real alternatives?The best probably is a used R1100S,a VTR 1000 has a few horses more on top but as a package is less appealing,the VFR heavy and more expensive to maintain,the Sprint ST heavy and hot in summer.Maybe one day I will subscribe to the less is more philosophy myself...
Chris
PS:Looks like a fun trackbike,too.More stable and more power in a SV650 kind of size/frame...Just wonder if it really needs a 180 rearwheel and if the 160 besides being lighter would also quicken up the steering even more as also the steering dampener...

Dan Alexander · Dan Alexander's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Geuting
PS:Looks like a fun trackbike,too.More stable and more power in a SV650 kind of size/frame...

That's just what I was thinking

Deans BMW · 03-20-2007, 06:02 PM

Road a F800S while at San Jose BMW the other day, all I can say, was very impressed, the bike flat hauls B**t, unbeliveable brakes and handling. I was suprised Big Time. I think they have sold all they can get their hands on.

Chris Geuting · 03-20-2007, 09:31 PM

Sold out already?Hauls butt;it is pretty much as fast as the R1100S comparing the results from the euro mags...Hp ca 6 less but also around 70 lbs lighter.Brakes/ABS system is the same as on the R1200S but you can't turn it off...Very low fuel consumption up to 60mpg...Does anyone know how to adjust the valves and if you can do it easy yourself or is it shop only job like on most jap bikes?
Chris

throttlemeister · throttlemeister's Garage

We have had F800's running around in the hands of buying customers for months here already, and I tell you it is cheap looking compared to a VFR. It better be, as it about €5k cheaper. The materials look cheap, fit and finish is nowhere near a VFR (or your typical Honda). A VFR looks classy. A F800 looks like a poor mans alternative, more in the range of the CBF if you want to compare to a Honda. And to be honest, I don't think the R12S looks its 16k euros worth either.

Heavy? A 209kg bike is not heavy, despite all the rags claim. Yes it is heavier than a crotch rocket. It is also exactly as heavy as the R11S. It is not like the F800ST with its dry weight of 187kg is so shockingly less. And a bit more weight when touring is not nessesarely a bad thing. The F800 is also very tiny, which makes it a less than ideal choice of you are a bit longer.

As far as expensive and complex maintenance for the VFR, it is not. Don't believe everything you read on the net. It can easily be done yourself. It has 16k miles service intervals and the likelihood of it needing valve adjustments after the initial adjustment at 16k is close to zero.

All this doesn't make the F800 a bad bike, but you're crapping your bull**** on one of the best bikes ever built. These bikes do everything good and virtually bulletproof. ****, when it comes to reliability BMW doesn't even have anything in their lineup that comes close, and they haven't for a long time.

branners · 03-20-2007, 11:55 PM

Always had a spot for a vertical twin. I once had the Ducati 500 which was a great ride, even though it was built like Homer Simpson made it. Was stolen after 3 months.
The thing that I like about the F8 is that it is 'real size', ie not too small for a real sized person. I like the look of the new Kawa 650 twin but it is the size of a mini bike.
I am keeping my BCR but if someone was to make me an offer I couldn't refuse, I would be tempted...

RC51DRAG · 03-21-2007, 05:54 AM

Opinions vary, facts don't lie.

IMO having seen both the F800S/ST and having been a fan of the VFR over the years I cannot see the quality difference. IMO fit and finish of BMWs and Hondas has always been comparable.

According to Sport Rider magazine the 2006 VFR VTEC wet weight is 587 pounds.

In comparison sport rider has the R1100S weighing 565 pounds (wet), the K12R at 547 pounds (wet), the K12S at 561 pounds (wet). Even the R1200GSA (figures from Motorcyclist magazine) weighs 581 pounds (wet)!

The F800ST sits at around 460 pounds (wet). The F800S sits at around 449 pounds (wet). The CBR600RR when it was first released weighed 440 pounds (wet). Pretty impressive for a sports-tourer to be within 20-30 pounds of a supersport bike IMO. Over 100 - 120 pounds, depending on how optimistic the BMW numbers are, is significant. Check out the BIKE test mpg figures between the VFR and 800ST. They are equally as significant.

throttlemeister · throttlemeister's Garage

When you talk facts, at least get your facts straight.

The R1100S is listed as 209kg dry, the VFR is 213kg dry. The R1100S has 18l of gas, the VFR 22l. That puts em around the same mark wet.

Dry weight of the F800ST is 187, so that is 22kg difference. That is nowhere near a 100lbs, more like 50.

The difference in weight between the bikes if they are wet or dry is going to be in the same ballpark. Definately not twice as much difference between dry or wet.

Still, I think the F800 looks cheap in comparison to the VFR. As far as fit and finish, I still have to see a perfectly fitting fairing on any BMW, something that is normal on a Honda. There always seems to be something not just right.

Don't get me wrong though, I love my little beemer and wouldn't want to ride anything else for a long time. But in some things BMW just doesn't match up to Honda.

Chris Geuting · 03-21-2007, 08:18 AM

Throttlemeister on the same scales at MOTORRAD the VFR800 came in at 254kg wet,the R1100S-ABS at 243kg and the F800ST at 209kg.
The VFR despite having only chaindrive is a heavy pig.Exactly as heavy as a K1200S but without shaftdrive and 60hp less...
I have frien with a new white VTEC-VFR and looked at the F800.I don't see were the Honda looks any more expensive.Frame and swingarm are as nice on both bikes and the quality of the plastics are also on par.
What the F800 hopefully doesn't do is overheating on warm days,VFR's with thei side mounted radiators like to do that and hopefully the alternator regulator won't go as early as on a lot of VFR's either.Also a lot of VTEC VFR's surge...
The VFR has 12 hp more on top and probably 12 mph higher topspeed and bigger bags but that's it...If Honda wants to have a contender again the need to ditch the VTEC-BS and give it 1000cc,ditch the always linked bake system,loose 40 lbs and give it a clean belt drive...Hopefully by then BMW counters with a R1200S with the full enchilada of touring options...;-))
Chris

pwillikers · 03-21-2007, 08:30 AM

These are extraordinary bikes.

Paul Thompson · 03-21-2007, 08:47 AM

The VFR is in it's last year according to popular rumour. Next year will see 2 new V4's. One sports, one tour. Both will feature VVT. Between 800 and 1000cc.
I reckon i could end up going back to Honda.

Sideshow_S · 03-21-2007, 05:54 PM

Good track bike? Aawhhaaaaa? For (less than) half the price you can have a somewhat used but fully suspended, faired, frame-slidered, cammed, and more SV for half the price. But if your budget can afford to slide that down the pavement . . .

Brand loyalty is a sign of ignorance. And ignorance is bliss. No wonder I'm never happy.

Flatbutt1 · 03-21-2007, 06:24 PM

anybody here ever toured on a VFR?

Sideshow_S · 03-21-2007, 07:28 PM

I put 500 miles on a '99 in a day ride. It was smooth and fun. I'd own one if there weren't bikes with more character for similar prices. Something about being too practical creating a lack of excitement. The VFR is much better than that, though. Mostly friendly ergos. Capable throttle, typical soft suspension for any stock bike, and the weight kept it stable. Great bike for an all-arounder for the drivetrain. If I had one, I'd totally spring for the Laser exhaust that looks like the MV F4 pipes. Those sound pretty.

Like any bike, some like, some don't. Nothing on the internet or the rags matter. Test rides mean everything.