skillz drillz: riding w/o brakes!?!!

danOden · 05-06-2007, 01:12 PM

so, i'm heading out to the junction today, along a nice twisty piece of asphault known as mines road, and when i get there i overhear an older rider speaking with another saying he hadn't been out riding in quite a while, so he had ridden out to the junction trying not to use his brakes. i wondered what good that would do, and since i was riding by myself today, on the way back, i gave it a try.

wow. i found it really gave me a much better feel for my speed, rpm's, lean angles, ride-lines and made me really think through the next turn.

by using the engine to modulate speed (and having just gotten comfortable with clutchless up/down shifting) i was in much better shape to negotiate my turns coming in on the outside and "pushing" my apex much further into the turn, and being able to get on the throttle exiting, rarely getting caught overgeared and lugging.

in fact, today is the first time i've ever dragged a footpeg. shocked the heck out of me. i was just flicking left and right through a series of turns heading into a hairpin and all of a sudden "wtf?!!" and then realized it was me giggling inside my helmet for the next few seconds.

riding without the brakes got me using much more body english than usual which i really enjoyed and was able to focus on the ride more since i wasn't having to concentrate on using either the brake or the clutch lever. my bike and i seemed to anticipate and react more naturally to the road.

i wouldn't say i road faster than usual, far from it, i'd guess, but i can say it's the smoothest i've ridden.

as a flaming intermediate rider, i'm always looking to improve my riding skills. if you have any other "zen secrets" to pass along, please post 'em.

John Lyon · 05-06-2007, 01:39 PM

That's a good one. On a downhill ride, I also enjoy coasting with the engine off - helps practice maintaining momentum or something. Its mainly just fun to have total silence.

celticus · 05-06-2007, 01:49 PM

I was following a riding buddie this weekend at the Ga. Mtn. rally and found that I was using my brakes about 70% less than he was. Using my brakes less and just going throught the curve smoothly is one of my goals for making myself a better rider.
Mark

R111S · R111S's Garage

Our high compression Boxer Motors offer lots of engine braking...I use it allot and it really helps the smoothness factor in the curves as you say.

VetteRacer · 05-06-2007, 05:46 PM

Wait, you use brakes?

I use engine compression to slow me down most the time. Use brakes around town, and right before the corner to get my suspension feeling how I want it, and scrub any extra speed off..

On this subject, whats normal brake pad life for most of you?

YellowRacer · 05-06-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VetteRacer
Wait, you use brakes?
I use engine compression to slow me down most the time. Use brakes around town, and right before the corner to get my suspension feeling how I want it, and scrub any extra speed off..

On this subject, whats normal brake pad life for most of you?

Who needs brakes? All they do is slow you down. I want to go FAST, not s l o w . . .

John Lyon · 05-06-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VetteRacer
On this subject, whats normal brake pad life for most of you?

20k for me.

VetteRacer · 05-06-2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Lyon
20k for me.

Ok, I ran 22k on the K Bike and never replaced them, still dont need too (but will once motor is swapped).
Have 14k on the S and they are gone, but dont know when replaced prior to me.
Wondering if it was riding style, or if they last a long time anyways...

AntonLargiader · 05-07-2007, 02:47 AM

The 'no brakes' thing is a real eye-opener. Keith Code started his class off this way and it really lets you fine-tune corner entry because your brain isn't distracted by the braking/survival clutter. Later on during the day I noticed that my entry speed was slower when I was braking from a higher speed.

Unfortunately it'd be very hard to practice this at a track day; ten people would outbrake you in every corner and then block you from realizing the corner speed that you might have achieved.

bradzdotcom · bradzdotcom's Garage

http://www.killerroads.com/samples.htm

sample #10. "Look ma, no brakes"

and sample #11. "Introducing Electro bike"

Fenring · 05-07-2007, 11:59 AM

Ever since my little road accident I considerably cut down on using front breaks, because the reason I fell was that my front locked up on a hard breaking. Since then I discovered that engine breaking is the way to go most of the time. I somehow have the feeling of greater control over the bike.

Also, by default, breaking with front breaks while leaning in turn tends to straighten the bike, whilst breaking with the rear tends to increase the lean. Though it should be said that engine breaking, especially while downshifting as well, can end in rear wheel locking up and that can be dangerous in turns, but at least it's much easier to correct then the front locking up, when you'll have to be either very quick to react or very very lucky. Otherwise the bike just topples over and I know that first hand

By the way, all my experience is from a zx-6r (my bmw dealer is still not sure when my r12s, that I ordered 2 and a half months ago, is going to arrive

), but should apply in general.

squall_line · 01:12 PM

When I had my 1150RT, there was a lot of concern about oil consumption. One or two enterprising and experimenting fellows took it upon themselves to keep better track of their riding habits, which seemed to indicate that engine braking on a boxer led to increased oil consumption.

Any thoughts from the folks on here about this?

I don't believe it was much more than a quart per thousand or two thousand miles, which is easy enough to check in the site glass, but not everyone checks their oil before every ride, either.

There was also a quote that I can't remember verbatim, or attribute, but it went something like "That $8000 engine is made for going, not for stopping. Use the $300 brakes for that instead, would ya? That's what they're there for."

bradzdotcom · bradzdotcom's Garage

how about both?
when i get "a little frisky", i combine hard braking and engine braking at the same time.
i don't seem to go through brake pads more than some of the other guys, and the engine is still virgin on the inside after 40k.
combining both seems to "whoa" the thing down the best for me.

celticus · 05-11-2007, 01:37 PM

What about sliding your butt over the edge of the seat during a turn? I tried that some this last weekend and it seemed to help. Like I was turning more sharply without leaning as much. I don't know much about it and would appreciate some words of wisdom from a better rider.

Mark

Fenring · 05-11-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by celticus
What about sliding your butt over the edge of the seat during a turn? I tried that some this last weekend and it seemed to help. Like I was turning more sharply without leaning as much. I don't know much about it and would appreciate some words of wisdom from a better rider.

Mark

I'm anything but a better driver, but I can offer a scientific view. It occured to me only recently that the lean angle of a bike is determined by speed and sharpness of turn. In order to keep a lean while turning, a bike must balance the force of gravity and the centripetal force that is caused by inertia (mass wants to keep going straight, but you want it to change direction). So, basically, when you drop a knee and slide butt over the edge, with your own mass you change the center of gravity of the bike, and in order to balance gravity and centripetal force, now you have to lean the bike a little less to keep the same turn rate.

All said, I'd still like an independent confirmation to this theory.

roger albert · 05-11-2007, 02:35 PM

That is totally correct.
In addition to getting your behind over, practice getting your head and shoulders (upper body) over too. Kind of behind the mirror is a good easy place to aim for.

Do all of that with your legs, not by leveraging yourself on the bars (a complete no-no) and you'll be surprised what it can do for you.
Aw-kward at first, but with practice Aw-some.

bradzdotcom · bradzdotcom's Garage

and to take that to the extreme: the MotoGP guys have recently switched over to 800cc bikes this year, down from 990cc bikes last year.

im MotoGP, it's very common to get so far off the bike that the knee touches down. this year, because of the smaller machines, the riders are getting, shall we say, a little more "creative".

for example, Tony Elias has been photographed numerous times sliding his THIGHS on the ground. (example: road racer x, june '07 issue, page 68)

(don't suggest you try that...might not work as well for ya as it does for tony).

Fenring · 05-12-2007, 10:29 AM

Here's another thing that occured to me just now. Even if you distribute your weight to achieve better turn rate at less lean, the centripetal force still remains the same and it's up to the tires to keep the grip on the ground plane. Now, wouldn't that mean that you can achieve better turn rate, but you'll need better tires as well? (or at least be confident in the ones you have)

John Lyon · 05-12-2007, 11:26 AM

Hanging off a bit you keep the tires in the "fat" part of the tread rather than toward the scary edge. Instead of potentially running out of tread and sliding (or touching down a hard part and sliding), you can only break loose from pure lateral g-force - much harder to do (more like a car).

Corky · 05-12-2007, 03:07 PM

The video @
http://www.killerroads.com/samples.htm

sample #10. "Look ma, no brakes"

Man I have enjoyed watching that more than once. Thats a great video. Its prompted me to run downhill corners with the engine off. What a kick! I even have one of those bikes that has the servo brakes, so if you panic grab for the brakes theres not much there.
Great practice, keeps you nice and smooth....