Ot: Gas Prices

[pmc847]

Read this. http://www.runet.edu/~wkovarik/oil/

What is the truth?

If it's the government speaking then we know it's a lie. If it's big business/oil companies then we know they are lying in order to control the price as best they can. I still say lets start drilling our own oil and that will help spur competition.

Philip

[Tirebiter]

And dont forget oil shale........there is more oil locked the rocks in Colo/Ut than the Arabs ever thought of pumping from the ground ... it is just a beech to recover.

ckcarr prolly has some of that "solid gold" (as opposed to Jed's liquid gold) right there in his back yard.......

Brad....info on the "newest" refinery...http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn12966.htm

[Hong Kong Nick]

HA HA!

You 'merican types crack me up when you go on about petrol (gas!) prices!

Here in Hong Kong it works out at about US$6.54 per gallon (US, liquid)!!

Half of that is government tax (!) and the other half goes to the thieving gypsies that sell the stuff ...

... here in Hong Kong every petrol station has the same price, no matter the company. Try telling me that they aren't running some sort of cartel and killing competition

Obviously we have to import everything we use here but if you go across the Border to [Mainland] China then it's less than half that price ... and they are importing all of their petrol, too! Go figure!

I remember when my father worked in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990's ... it was basically free and you only paid an 'administrative cost' for the guys doing the pumping ... !!!!!

Oh, well. Time to go burn some money! Brroom Brrooooooooom ..

[BSnyder]

This article could help keep things in perspective.
From:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/2007/05/26/2007-05-26_milking_the_buyer_print.html

Milking the buyer
Moo juice could beat gas to $4 a gallon

BY JENS DANA and ETHAN ROUEN
DAILY NEWS WRITERS
Posted Saturday, May 26th 2007, 4:00 AM

Gas prices may be skyrocketing, but milk could break the $4-a-gallon mark first this summer.

The federally set price of milk has moved up 63 cents since December and will leap another 33 cents, to $3.87 a gallon, June 1.

According to New York State Dairy Foods, a dairy industry trade association, the federal government will likely allow farmers to boost prices again in July, putting milk on track to break the all-time $4.43-a-gallon record set in 2004.

By comparison, the average price of gas in the New York area this week is $3.31.

"I've never seen increases like this, and I've never seen projections like this for what the future prices will be," said Steven Schwartz, executive director of Dairy Foods.

Schwartz blames the rising costs of feed and fuel as well as the weak U.S. dollar for the bullish prices - which could keep rising well into 2008.

Production of ethanol, an alcohol used as a fuel and a fuel additive, has created a huge demand for the corn used to feed cows. That jacks up feed prices for farmers and reduces the amount of milk they produce.

In addition, foreign companies are buying U.S. surpluses of powdered milk because of the strength of their currencies against the dollar.

Ice cream and cheese makers usually depend on powdered milk to make their foods during the summer rush, but the short supply has sent them to liquid.

Milk prices traditionally rise between June and September, but this year the price increases are expected to continue into 2008, Schwartz said.

That leaves New Yorkers little choice but to dig deeper into their pockets. "It's outrageous," said Renae Capers of Harlem as she shivered in the Cold Room of the Fairway Market on 12th Ave. and 132nd St., where a gallon of milk costs $3.39. "If I had kids, I'd be crying right now."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

$4 a gallon and it does not have to brought halfway around the globe to get it in my cereal.
What do you pay for bottled water?

[Tirebiter]

Originally posted by Hong Kong Nick
HA HA!

You 'merican types crack me up when you go on about petrol (gas!) prices!

How could I have been such a fool, duped all these years by the capitalist oil barons??........I mean this thread has really opened my eyes and I am really getting pi$$ed about what has been going on for the last 30 years. It hasn't been just the oil baron bastiges that have been screwing us, look around at who else is bending us over, we should all be outraged!! Geez Louise, how could I have not seen it? For instance, when I first got out of college, I wanted a Harley in the worst way. My dad went with me to the Harley dealer in Farmington, MO....a run of the mill unit was $1,500 bucks and I couldn't afford it...now they are 10 times that much...10 TIMES! Those bastiges at Harley....My dad's run of the mill house was worth about 20K in Colo Springs at the time...today it is worth 10 times as much....those real estate land baron bastiges in Colo Springs ought to be drawn and quartered cuz I am sure that hasnt happened anywhere outside the state of Colorado.....And let me tell you, it's not just the greedy bastiges in this country screwing us....the Germans are in on it too!!! A BMW 2002 was $4,000 bucks new in 1974, now try to find a 3'er for less than $40K. Those bastiges!!! I bet they did the same thing on pricing of their damn motorcycles too!!!!! What other greedy bastiges have done this??? There must be collusion between every company in the world, we must let our complaints be known!!! Get hold of the Media types they will surely help us get the story straight!! And I should also complain that all these greedy bastiges have given me salary increases over the years too....WHAT an OUTRAGE!!

What a crack up indeed....gas in 1974 was $0.30 a gallon. Get real.....

Brock

[ckcarr]

That does piss me off!

When I was a 15 year old kid working at Stop Light Gas back in Illinois we would sell milk for $.99 per gallon. Now it goes for $2.50 - $3.00 !!!

The horror!!!

[JRMSR]

Originally posted by Tirebiter
Add to that the costs for finding new reserves cuz all of the easy stuff has been found. One of the more exciting finds of late was discovered in deep ocean ....I don't recall the exact figures, but imagine trying to drill in water that is on the order of a mile or so deep and then punching hole to a total depth of over 20,000 feet. I can't even imagine the metallurgy/technical wizardry involved to make drill steel strong enough to support almost four miles of drill steel. The cost for the ship capable of such a feat was on the order of $500,000 per day........there have been many expensive "dry" holes drilled that yielded nothing......oil exploration has always been a risky business.

I hate to be the bringer of bad tidings but he said, "net profit" not gross profit. Oil companies made a 100 Billion Dollar profit after all the exploration, drilling wells, material and employment costs etc. It's nothing but greed, plain and simple. Last year cost per barrel was .69 higher than this year so why does it cost more to produce it than it did last year?! Let me tell you why, old Georgie boy has said that we need to be 20% more fuel efficient in the EPA standards by the end of 2010. So we are going to take it in the arse from now on and beyond 2010, additionally were going to take it in the arse from auto manufactures when they have to meet the those standards.

Funny thing is your not going to see any government regulation in the US because Georgie Bush Jr. was to deeply connected with the oil manufactures before he was president and he's not going to jeopardize it, he'll be right back there when he's out of office. Pretty simple actually. Oil companies say its production levels, and plant closures, but we are already producing 18% more fuel this year than last. Production facilities are not a full capacity. The same thing happened in the 70's when they decided that they were going to produce at 30% less than full capacity. You and others can stick your heads in the sand and pretend that the oil companies and the government are there for your benefit but it's all about "MONEY and GREED" and how much they can glean off the American public before someone says enough. Just bend over and smile, cause your eather going to take without a fight or with it. Sad state of affairs when I can remember GAS WARS at .19 a gallon!

Cheers

[JRMSR]

Originally posted by Hong Kong Nick
HA HA!

You 'merican types crack me up when you go on about petrol (gas!) prices!

Here in Hong Kong it works out at about US$6.54 per gallon (US, liquid)!!

Half of that is government tax (!) and the other half goes to the thieving gypsies that sell the stuff ...

... here in Hong Kong every petrol station has the same price, no matter the company. Try telling me that they aren't running some sort of cartel and killing competition

Obviously we have to import everything we use here but if you go across the Border to [Mainland] China then it's less than half that price ... and they are importing all of their petrol, too! Go figure!

I remember when my father worked in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990's ... it was basically free and you only paid an 'administrative cost' for the guys doing the pumping ... !!!!!

Oh, well. Time to go burn some money! Brroom Brrooooooooom ..

That's easy, cause you are dealing with a bunch of communists!

[JRMSR]

Originally posted by pmc847
It's my understanding that the U.S. has enough oil reserves (in the ground) to last us at least 50 years without importing one drop of foreign oil. Of course that is if we had access to it right now. If the last administration would have allowed drilling in Anwar in the mid 90s then that oil would be on line now and our dependents on foreign oil would be vastly reduced and thus most likely lower priced because of the competition. Oh ya, we need a couple more refineries and less custom fuels. Ethanol is not the answer. It's more expense to produce, deliver, is not as efficient as good ol gas and new reports indicate it will pollute as much as gas and maybe more so. Not to mention what it is doing and will do to the cost of food for our table.

I also heard that the middle east produces a barrel of oil for about $3. Who's gouging who?

And we haven't even touch on the subject of federal, state and local taxes on that fine liquid. Today, the combined burden of federal, state and local gas taxes costs American drivers an average of 45.9 cents on every gallon purchased (according to data on gasoline use from the U.S. Department of Transportation). In the last 28 years (1977-2004) oil company profits were $463 billion, fed tax were $533 billion and state taxes were $ 810 billion. Again, who's gouging who?


I think every one should drive an SUV and burn all the gas we can, the sooner it's gone the sooner a viable replacement will be found.

Philip

Man, where did you come up with this? There is no way of knowing or estimating how much available oil is untapped in the US. The only oil reserves above ground in the US, are government controlled and would last about 5 weeks at our current consumption rate.

Cheers

[pmc847]

Where do I come up with this? I do research, read a lot and just use common sense. As my daddy use to say, 'figures can lie and liars can figure'. He also use to say, 'there are three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth. So take what you want from what you read. I'm sure we can all twist it to fit our position.

What I have read, there are estimates of 4.5 trillion barrels of potentially recoverable oil. Read the rest at http://www.runet.edu/~wkovarik/oil/ If you don't like what you read there then find something that you do like.

As for gouging, don't confuse large net profit dollars with large profit. Don't forget how much a company has to spend to make the revenue and then a profit. If you think the oil companies 10% profit is gouging then what about every company that makes over 10% profit, should they be scorned and forced to give up their profits? Microsoft made 3 billion profit on 9 billion revenue, is that gouging? I think the only problem with oil companies is that they are too big. They should have never been aloud to merge.

Lets ride and burn more fuel so my stock value and dividends increase.

Philip

[JonyRR]

I tend to believe the 'crossing the rubicon' guy on this one; if he wasn't close to the 'truth' he would have have had a typical Agency hatchet job done on him to shut him up.
Don't get me wrong; I'm as far from a pacifist as they come, but I DO subscribe to the 'they are ALL out to screw US out of as much as they can' theory; it's the capitalist way,, and I'm an unabashed capitalist. I'm just on the other side of the reaming on this one, as we all are.
I'm convinced, somewhere down the road, a 'breakthrough' will occur and there will be SOME methodology to power the industrialized world. it's not just going to grind to a halt without a bunch of hubris.
Unfortunately, this kind of sea change is usually accompanied by wrenching social change. hang on to your hats kids.
And let's burn some Dead Dinosaurs while the burnin' is good

[Hong Kong Nick]

In answer to 'get real', if you read what I posted then you'd notice that my point was that MY petrol price is twice as much as YOURS ..

I think even I can add up the difference that inflation makes over the years ... but one thing that does get me is the petrol companies willingness to RAISE prices when oil prices go up but NOT change DOWN the price when oil prices fall ...

Anyone else remember the days when you could just go out, club some woman and drag her off to your cave as a new wife ...

[Fenring]

Originally posted by Hong Kong Nick

Here in Hong Kong it works out at about US$6.54 per gallon (US, liquid)!!

Half of that is government tax (!) and the other half goes to the thieving gypsies that sell the stuff ...

In Croatia price of unleaded 95 octane gas is app. $5.5 per gallon ($1.45 per liter). Also roughly half of it goes to state. What's more insulting is that Croatia has it's own natural sources of oil and earth gas, some of which are still untaped.

[ckcarr]

I see that gas is now more than diesel again.

Why would gas be the same price in different countries anyway? That is implying that all commodities should be the same price worldwide.

Regarding net profits, etc. it's an interesting number, but can be very misleading. You need to look at the companies financial statements as a whole: Balance Sheet, Income Statement, Statement of Changes in Stockholders' Equity, Statement of Cash Flows, and the notes to determine what is really happening...

My current company sells copper. We have 80% - 85% fixed costs in the operation, sulfuric acid, diesel, and employee costs. Copper prices have ranged from $2.50 / lb to over $4.00 / lb in the last year. We have no control over our income therefore must plan accordingly when times are good. We can't have layoffs to control cash as the workforce will simply go away.

Anyway, having said that I too think the oil companies, the cartels, the brokers, the various governments all have a hand in it. We, the common people have no control.

You should watch the movie Syriana if you have never seen it. A lot of fact, a lot of fantasy but a good watch nonetheless. Here is a review:

Syriana

[Guest24]

If you guys think gas prices are high, compute the cost of a gallon of Starbucks coffee. That really blows my mind!!!!

[BSnyder]

A lot of work goes into making a cup of coffee. If you want a mind blowing experience just look at the price of bottled water.

[Tirebiter]

Originally posted by Hong Kong Nick
In answer to 'get real',

Opps....I was agreeing with you Nick, , my point being that we Americans are focused solely on fuel prices, forgetting that everything else has multiplied accordingly in price, many ahead of fuel prices. Its a crack up that we can be distracted enough to not look at the big picture and its time for us to get real and face the fact that we have had it very good for a long time compared to prices in other parts of the globe.

My apologies...Your comment sparked a theme but I kinda I got off tangent from my original thoughts and I see how you could take it wrong

Brock

[JRMSR]

Originally posted by pmc847
Where do I come up with this? I do research, read a lot and just use common sense. As my daddy use to say, 'figures can lie and liars can figure'. He also use to say, 'there are three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth. So take what you want from what you read. I'm sure we can all twist it to fit our position.

What I have read, there are estimates of 4.5 trillion barrels of potentially recoverable oil. Read the rest at http://www.runet.edu/~wkovarik/oil/ If you don't like what you read there then find something that you do like.

As for gouging, don't confuse large net profit dollars with large profit. Don't forget how much a company has to spend to make the revenue and then a profit. If you think the oil companies 10% profit is gouging then what about every company that makes over 10% profit, should they be scorned and forced to give up their profits? Microsoft made 3 billion profit on 9 billion revenue, is that gouging? I think the only problem with oil companies is that they are too big. They should have never been aloud to merge.

Lets ride and burn more fuel so my stock value and dividends increase.

Philip

Problem is here, you've basically answered my question. "Figures do lie and liars do figure." I see, you've read it on the Internet, Gee, are you gullible enough to believe everything you read on the great Internet!? Oh yes, it's gospel isn't it. A geologist makes an estimate of our possible underground oil supplies and bingo, poof, zowy, it's the truth. Don't forget, these are the same geologists that can't predict earthquakes, volcano eruptions, if there is 11 or 12 geologic periods, etc. Lets see, did they survey the entire country, did they get their figures from oil company geologists, or God forbid they used theoretical mathematics. Tell me just how accurate do you think these figures are. Oops Freudian slip, you read it on the Internet, gosh I forgot, darn. Your research comes from a geologist Colin J. Campbell, Ph.D., (born in Berlin, Germany in 1931) is a retired British petroleum geologist. Gee, he worked for the oil companies, fancy that! He has been employed by, Texaco, British Petroleum, Amoco, Shenandoah Oil, Norsk Hydro, and Fina. Gee not just one oil company but at least six I can count! I wonder where his retirement comes from?!

So, what your saying is, it's alright for the oil companies to lie about profit margins, manipulate refineries production levels and charge you more for production this year even thought the cost per barrel is cheaper than last year? Sounds like a bit of gouging to me and a bunch more crap spouted by IHS who employs Dr. Campbell and are employed directly by oil, military, aerospace and automotive manufactures. By the way, IHS is the parent company for who Campbell writes for. Gee, and all these corporations don't have direct ties with the oil companies. IHS is nothing but an information service that makes over $225 million a year and one that is providing management and understanding of the risks associated with finding and producing oil and gas, wow again with the oil companies! So to say they aren't in league with the oil companies, would be like saying, "fish don't belong in the water. "

Out of the $225 million that IHS netted last year, the oil companies paid over $100 million. Funny how the oil business has there hands in most everything. "If you don't like the information, manipulate the data." I always say!! Hence, Dr. Campbell theories.

Well now, let's take a simply "common sense" look at the data that is provided or is this a conspiracy theory? Dr. Campbell worked for six (6) different oil companies as a company geologist. He's now retired from British Petrol em and they pay his retirement, fancy that! He writes for a company (IHS) who is directly paid by the oil manufactures to the tune of almost half their net annual profit. Now, if you just say that the oil companies might control the information that is publicly available from Dr. Campbell, you'd probably be right, or have great influence over it would be an understatement. Why not let Dr. Campbell tell the world, the poor oil companies are having a hard time exploring for oil and there are much greater costs evolved, or better yet that we've reached our "Peak" and our oil supplies are dwindling to dangerous levels. Hence higher production costs, less oil availability, refinery problems and **POOF** you have instant increase in prices at the pumps and major profits for the oil companies. Not to mention, greater tax cost in supporting the aerospace industry, military,and others. Do you think that a man who is retired from a major oil company would make a immediate 180 degree turnabout and jeopardize that retirement? You answer that one. Well, I think your research is a little bit flawed as well as your common sense

Bottom line here is, where do you think the information you read came from? Couldn't be the oil companies now could it, huh! They wouldn't lie to us, now would they?!! Gouging, no I'd call it highway robbery!! Some small speculation on my part but primarily fact. I will say it again, it's all about GREED and MONEY!! After 50 odd years of watching the oil companies operate it doesn't take a genius to figure out that we all are being taken for a ride. I give it an overall sphincter factor of about a 9.5!!!

Cheers

Jeff

[Guest24]

We wouldn't have a shortage if every person that could rode two wheeled cycle. My S gets 45 mpg no mater how I run it. An SUV gets 12-18 on average. Euro cars are smaller and weigh less than the USA tanks. Texas Big is not what we need for transportation.

[pmc847]

Jeff,

Where do you come up with this stuff <;~). As I said, there are 3 sides to every story. That means that my side is biased to my way of thinking and your is to your way of thinking and then there is the truth. I would be willing to bet that the truth is somewhere between our beliefs. Nobody knows how much oil is in the ground. The 4.5 trillion potentially barrels is just as good a guess as the guess you might back. Nobody really knows.

As for reading it on the internet, would it have been better to have gone to the library and read the same research? The numbers didn't come from a blog or from someone who is an electrical engineer, the numbers came from a so called expert. Dr. Colin Campbell makes a similar analogy as Mr. Abdallah S. Jum'ah, that doesn't make them right nor did I say they are right. What I put forth here is just another side, which I tend to subscribe to with my limited knowledge.

So, to your way of thinking, anyone that worked for the oil companies must be wrong. To me if the oil companies wanted to scare us, and keep the prices up, they would be saying we are at the peak of production and there is not 4.5 trillion potentially barrels still in the ground. Then again they might say 4.5 trillion so that research on alternate energy will be delayed. Which is it? I don't know. I have my thoughts about it and so do you. Who's right. Time will tell. With your vast knowledge (50 odd years of watching the oil companies operate) who sets the price of oil? Is it OPEC, the futures and commodity market or is it the oil companies? I don't think it's the oil companies alone, they don't own that much of the so called unknown reserves.

Now, what are your thoughts on global warming and CO2? Which scientists are right and who is wrong. Could it be that those that say it's man made and CO2 is the cause are in the pockets of a few who reap the profits from government grants? Are doctors selling us a bill of goods to make money? Is Microsoft and all the IT experts so they can reap 33% profits? How about the financial experts and banks? I guess we can't trust anyone.

Where abouts in Tx do you live? I lived there for almost 20 years, mostly in Ft Worth. I miss that part of the country.

Long live capitalism.

Philip
"It's a great bike but I can make it better".

04 R1100S BCR # 195
03 R1100S BCR #44 R.I.P. new home with 'onekiwi'
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