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Hong Kong Nick's Avatar
 
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Location: Hong Kong
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Brock ... no problems ...

I think it's time we all looked at the cars we use ... my wife has a 8 km ROUND TRIP daily commute (!) yet insists on driving her Lexus IS 200 to and from work ... she wouldn't be seen in something like a 'Smart Car' (you know the one ... freaky looking dinky car!) that would get excellent mileage and be cheaper to run!

Personally, I have never understood the fascination with pickup trucks and SUVs that there is in the US.

I've never understood Hong Kong's fascination with huge Mercedez Benz cars, either ... I think we have the highest number of MBs and Rolls Royces per capita anywhere in the world ... and it's such a small place!

Of course, I'm being a hypocrite because one of those big 'Maxi scooters' made by Honda / Yamaha / Suzuki would get better mileage than my S ... but they wouldn't be so much fun!

Cheers,

Nick

Old 05-27-2007, 04:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #81 (permalink)
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Garage
...about taxes and so on...

...over here a liter Euro (95) is about 1.46...

Price : 1,46 p/liter
VAT : 0,2333 p/liter
Exise-duty : 0,6681 p/liter
Keeping it in stock for us… : 0,0053 p/liter
Nett price 0,5543 p/liter

Tax burden : 0,9067 p/liter
And in a percentage : 62,06% (!!)
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R1200S + R1200RT

Last edited by RoLoo; 05-27-2007 at 09:37 PM..
Old 05-27-2007, 09:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #82 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pmc847
Jeff,

Where do you come up with this stuff <;~). As I said, there are 3 sides to every story. That means that my side is biased to my way of thinking and your is to your way of thinking and then there is the truth. I would be willing to bet that the truth is somewhere between our beliefs. Nobody knows how much oil is in the ground. The 4.5 trillion potentially barrels is just as good a guess as the guess you might back. Nobody really knows.

As for reading it on the Internet, would it have been better to have gone to the library and read the same research? The numbers didn't come from a blog or from someone who is an electrical engineer, the numbers came from a so called expert. Dr. Colin Campbell makes a similar analogy as Mr. Abdallah S. Jum'ah, that doesn't make them right nor did I say they are right. What I put forth here is just another side, which I tend to subscribe to with my limited knowledge.

So, to your way of thinking, anyone that worked for the oil companies must be wrong. To me if the oil companies wanted to scare us, and keep the prices up, they would be saying we are at the peak of production and there is not 4.5 trillion potentially barrels still in the ground. Then again they might say 4.5 trillion so that research on alternate energy will be delayed. Which is it? I don't know. I have my thoughts about it and so do you. Who's right. Time will tell. With your vast knowledge (50 odd years of watching the oil companies operate) who sets the price of oil? Is it OPEC, the futures and commodity market or is it the oil companies? I don't think it's the oil companies alone, they don't own that much of the so called unknown reserves.

Now, what are your thoughts on global warming and CO2? Which scientists are right and who is wrong. Could it be that those that say it's man made and CO2 is the cause are in the pockets of a few who reap the profits from government grants? Are doctors selling us a bill of goods to make money? Is Microsoft and all the IT experts so they can reap 33% profits? How about the financial experts and banks? I guess we can't trust anyone.

Where abouts in Tx do you live? I lived there for almost 20 years, mostly in Ft Worth. I miss that part of the country.

Long live capitalism.

Philip
"It's a great bike but I can make it better".

Phillip,

I currently live in Del Rio, but hopefully not for long. I've had the privilage of living all over the world. We can go over and over this with fact after fact but it comes down to one thing. The only people who are really in control of this situation are those who control the oil. Has it been driven by profits? Yes, throughout the past three decades. Will it get better, not likely for the long term. We just can't afford to be nieve! Is it controlled by the Arabs, you'd better believe it. Out of eleven OPEC members five counties are in control of 2/3's of all the oil produced in the world today. Nine are Muslim/Arabic based countries. Will they use it to manipulate and influence politics in other countries? Yes, they done it before, it's history. But you know this as well as I.

Out of the nine Arab countries, Saudi Aramco Holdings and ownership of American Companies like Texaco, Exxon, Mobile, Shell and others are well known. Founding members of OPEC ownership and holding are massive. I don't have enough room to put all the information here. Just do the research, it's all available to the public. Their profit is not equal to their investment. Profit again is the driving force in any business. Do some research in each OPEC controlling members personal assets and you'll understand what I'm saying, it's a long interesting puzzle. Again this is public information. So, I choose not to subscribe to your line of thinking. Your being a little too nieve to believe that their personal profits don't far outweigh their investments. You've already stated, that you have personal investments in oil related stock, so I believe your thinking is a little bias and wishful. No offense!

I don't want to get OT here with other discussions. Personally I'm generally a middle of the road thinker and not a doomsayer. I look at all the facts and try to come up with a good sold synopsis. In this case, the facts are pretty plain to see. We can go on and on but it's not going to solve anything. The only thing is that is for certain is, gas prices are up and not on their own accord. I still believe that we are being gouged as well as the rest of the utilizing world and that's not going to change. Personal wealth for a rich man is his only love. To increase it is his only goal. With wealth comes power and with power comes control over others and this has been the theme since the beginning of time, especially in the Arab world!!

Cheers

Jeff

Last edited by JRMSR; 05-29-2007 at 10:30 AM..
Old 05-28-2007, 07:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #83 (permalink)
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Jeff,

I agree with almost everything you said. The likes of OPEC and Hugo have a very tight control of oil and yes our oil companies take advantage of that fact. Fix the first problem (OPEC) and the second (oil companies) might just fall into place. Then there is the world demand and the futures market aspect that contributes to the high prices. Again, I don't know what can be done to fix it at this point. This problem is just way too big to get my hands and mind around. Of course OPEC controlling members personal profits outweigh their investments. With OPEC it is controlled by a few at the expense of all. The oil companies are publicly owned through stock and stockholders benift. I have always maintained that the problem starts with OPEC. The point I have been trying to make is that a 10% profit margin is not gouging. Maybe if you strip away their questionable accounting practices it might show an even bigger profit margin. But what is too big of a profit margin? Oil companies rank about 127 among the top 500 for profit. What about the first 127? Should they be vilified the same as oil companies. They too are in it to make a profit and have control.

I've enjoyed this discussion and you have enlightened me with your knowledge but I don't think we are that far apart on what the real problems are. If we are going to enjoy and reap the benefits of capitalism in this country then I don't think its fair to vilify one company for making a reasonable profit over another that make 2 to 3 times that profit. The world runs on energy, and oil is king for now but when oil is replaced with another form of energy we will see the same thing happen. It's the price we pay for the benefits we reap.

Have a great day and lets ride.

Philip
Old 05-28-2007, 08:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #84 (permalink)
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Phillip,

One last thing, we all understand the law of supply and demand. Would you rather sell your product to billions, for a fair price or sell it at a high price to a few? That would mean that you've either got a fair, economically moral mind or you are ethically and morally corrupted. In this case I believe it's the latter. All you have to do is look at the lavish lifestyles and their unethical behavior to answer this. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Cheers

Jeff
Old 05-29-2007, 10:47 AM
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Jeff,

Absolutely agree. I have always maintained you can make more money with great customer service with a good product at a great price. More satisfied customer generates more customers and great profits. But the original question still applies, is 10% profit margin gouging, immoral or unethical? And if so then it needs to be applied to all forms of business.

Thanks for you perspective, I've learned positive things from it.

Philip
Old 05-29-2007, 12:20 PM
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going back to what you were talking about with global warming, its concensus among the scientific community. there have been countless polls taken of the scientific community and they all come out nearly 100% that we have a problem and we need to fix it fast. for some reason its not getting across to the public as many polls showing only slightly more then half of us think global warming is a real issue...
hell, even bush has admitted it...
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Old 05-29-2007, 01:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #87 (permalink)
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I agree that there is warming but maybe more regional than global and I'm not convinced that it is man made. Neptune and Mars are experiencing warming too, can that be C02 related or is it the sun? As they say, follow the money. There are just too many variables to be certain of the real cause. I'm just not sure yet. For sure we need to clean up our air and water and not be so wasteful with our natural recourses.

Here is a link to a very interesting paper by high school student Kristen Byrnes of Portland Maine. It's well written and documented. http://home.earthlink.net/~ponderthemaunder/index.html. Just something to read and think about. Time will tell.

By the way, you can drive yourself nuts reading the pros and cons and then try to understand and to make sense of it all.

Philip
Old 05-29-2007, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pmc847
Jeff,

But the original question still applies, is 10% profit margin gouging, immoral or unethical? And if so then it needs to be applied to all forms of business.

Philip
DOES it need to be applied to all businesses? i would argue that it most certainly does not. Access to transportation is a NEED in our society, not a WANT. A bicycle is not a practical alternative, unless you're living in a city, and that is virtually the only form of transport that does not need some form of fossil fuel. Mass transit only works if you have it available. Where I am, and in many of the more rural parts of our country (and there is more that is rural than there is urbanized), private transport is the ONLY viable alternative. That makes gas/oil/diesel a necessary utility, much like electricity. and yes, we can and should do all we can to conserve (does it really MATTER if global warming is happening or not?) for a variety of real reasons, but the oil megoliths should not be making such outrageously obscene profits off of a commodity that is necessary for sustained existence - at least if people want to maintain a lifestyle anything similar to those we currenly enjoy.
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Old 05-29-2007, 02:33 PM
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if we are gonna regulate profits to make gas cheaper, then the next logical step is to make everyone fill out an application to drive something bigger than a liter displacement engine.

two words friends: slippery slope.
Old 05-29-2007, 03:17 PM
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Slippery slope indeed. First oil then what? That's why socialist government don't work. Capitalism does work. Sometime business's need to be hit over the head once in awhile but you know ,as well as I, price controls don't work, usually makes things worse.

Here in Wisconsin the governor wants to add .05 tax to a gallon of gas, we are already at 32.9 cents state tax. He also wants to add a excess profit tax to every barrel of oil/gas that comes into the state. I believe the saying that, 'businesses don't pay taxes, people pay the taxes'. All business taxes get passed on to the public.
Old 05-29-2007, 04:53 PM
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right. it should be global climate change. and the fact that your not convinced was in my post already, nearly unanimous consent in the scientific community, population in general (in the USA) only about 50% belief (Flat earth society anyone?). thanks for posting the high school article. And i'm glad you believe in clean air and water. For those who posted "so what", i have nothing to say about that except to ask, who won American Idle? carry on with gas discussion, my apologies for the tangent.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:10 AM
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how many people in the "scientific community" have studied this, vs how many are on a mailing list and just formulated an opinion based on the same type of reading that average joe can do?

dont get me wrong, im not a fan of big emissions producers either, but global climate change is well, constant. if it werent for global warming, mammoths would rule the earth.
Old 05-30-2007, 08:17 AM
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i'm not sure i can give you a number but being a subscriber to national geographic, all you read about is evidence of global climate change coming from a variety of fields. biologists, climatologists, geologists, etc etc. not to mention simple surveys of researchers, fieldworkers, and the like. its not that they are studying climate change specificly, its that its becoming a prevelant factor in their areas of expertise and they report what they're finding. those that are studying it exlusively are gathering all the evidence and presenting it to the public.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:22 AM
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Global climate change was never constant. but i hear what you're saying. the amount of greenhouse gases in the air (CO2 and such) has been shown to have a high correlation to temperature. never in earths history that we know of has this deviated very far, including ice ages etc. the amount of warming gases in the air is measurable and its way way higher then ever before in history and its growing at an incredibly rapid pace and has been since the industrial revolution. in time temperature will catch up.... thats what everyone is worried about. temp lags behind CO2 but it fully correlates.... mammoths? cmon meow!
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:30 AM
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thats exactly what i mean. the climate is and has always been changing. "global warming" is a scare tactic. i think most people believe we should be as clean and green as possible, but global warming has been and continues to be mis-represented, because it is so big and scary that you either agree to it, or look like an uncaring a$$ if you say no to the keoto(sp?) treaty. its an artificial 500 pound gorilla in the room.

like i said, polution isnt good. but the use of this type of hype isnt right either
Old 05-30-2007, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Restrepo
Global climate change was never constant. the amount of greenhouse gases in the air (CO2 and such) has been shown to have a high correlation to temperature. never in earths history that we know of has this deviated very far, including ice ages etc. .. mammoths? cmon meow!
CO2 levels were as much as 20 times higher than today during the Ordovician period (460-440 million years ago)

and yes the mammoth comment was cheesy.
Old 05-30-2007, 08:41 AM
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what else was going on in the Ordovician Period one may ask?

The Ordovician period began approximately 510 million years ago, with the end of the Cambrian, and ended around 445 million years ago, with the beginning of the Silurian. At this time, the area north of the tropics was almost entirely ocean, and most of the world's land was collected into the southern super-continent Gondwana. Throughout the Ordovician, Gondwana shifted towards the South Pole and much of it was submerged underwater.

The Ordovician is best known for the presence of its diverse marine invertebrates, including graptolites, trilobites, brachiopods, and the conodonts (early vertebrates). A typical marine community consisted of these animals, plus red and green algae, primitive fish, cephalopods, corals, crinoids, and gastropods. More recently, there has been found evidence of tetrahedral spores that are similar to those of primitive land plants, suggesting that plants invaded the land at this time.

From the Early to Middle Ordovician, the earth experienced a milder climate in which the weather was warm and the atmosphere contained a lot of moisture. However, when Gondwana finally settled on the South Pole during the Late Ordovician, massive glaciers formed causing shallow seas to drain and sea levels to drop. This likely caused the mass extinctions that characterize the end of the Ordovician, in which 60% of all marine invertebrate genera and 25% of all families went extinct


http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/ordovician/ordovician.html

just did a google search. yes, when the earth was in its infant stages. when there was little to no life on LAND, CO2 was up there. thanks for reminding us all of that. my bad for choice of wording.
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:55 AM
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infant stages, again, poor choice of words. a long long time ago. in a galaxy....
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:00 AM
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further proof that normal people should just do what they can and ride. much easier than researching and presenting point counterpoint.

im gonna go buy starwars and watch it with my kid again. he wants a speederbike. i wonder what kinda milage those would get.

Old 05-30-2007, 09:07 AM
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