Ultra Capacitor + Smaller Battery...

[R111S]

I've been thinking about using a 58 Farad Ultra Capacitor plus a small Lawn&Garden Tractor Battery in place of the standard Battery on my R1100S.

The Ultra Capacitor is in a package that is very similar in size to the two Relay Containers on the LH/RH Side of the Headlight. It can put out 1500 Amps when short circuited. Leakage current is 1mA in 72 Hours. It weighs ~1 Pound. Cost: $127 each in single quantities, 6 to 15 for $117 each. Rated 15VDC. Should last the life of the bike. Here's a link:
http://www.prestostore.com/catalog.php/tecategroup.com/dt9243/pd34281#IMAGES



So why do I want to do this? I'm thinking of putting the smaller Battery on one side of the rear shock and the Ultra Capacitor on the other side. This would open up the Battery Space for a Fuel Tank enlargement. I'd connect a T-Fitting to the rubber Balance Tube near the back and pipe in the new tank section to be sure it drains to the lower tank sections in front.

Another benefit would be a lower cost battery come replacement time since I'd be using a small Lawn&Garden Unit. I may try eliminating the lead-acid battery altogether or replace it with a stack of Rechargeable types.

Please add your valued comments to this thread...

[GotRoad?]

why not just ditch the battery altogether & run the bike off the alternator; course you'll need a big ole capicator & a zenner diode to bury the excess current. It'll give you the racers edge.

[markjenn]

Interesting idea, but I don't think these capacitors hold enough energy to be very useful.

Some back of the envelope calculations indicate that a 58 farad capacitor at 15V is good for about 0.23 amp-hrs of energy compared to the 19 amp-hour capacity of the standard S battery. IOW, it would take about 83 of these capacitors to be the electrical equal of the S battery. That would be 83-lbs of capacitors vs. the 15-lb S battery. This is consistent with general guidelines for energy densities of current "ultra" capacitor technology which is about 15% lead-acid technology.

The thing that capacitors excel at, compared to a chemical battery, is delivering really high power in a short period of time. This thing can deliver 1500 amps, way more than a chemical battery can deliver. But because it doesn't hold much energy, it can only do it for about half a second. That's why capacitors are used to damp fluctuations in electrical circuits, not to store energy long term.

It's possible that a hybrid battery/capacitor setup might allow you to use a very small conventional battery, that normally would not be able to deliver enough current to start the bike, and use the capacitor's high current delivery capability to supply the very high startup current for the starter motor. Maybe that's what you're after. But given how little each of these capacitors holds, you'd probably need several and you can't go very far with this before the cure is worse than the disease.

I'm also unfamilar with how the BMW's charging system would react with one of these in the circuit.

Again, interesting idea, but I doubt it will pan out.

- Mark

[JonyRR]

haven't looked at this type of unit in a while.

'This thing can deliver 1500 amps, way more than a chemical battery can deliver. But because it doesn't hold much energy, it can only do it for about half a second.'

yep, it's a cap, fur sure,
but I bet I can come up with SOMETHING to do with that much short-term current

[JonyRR]

the ultimate anti-hijacking device, maybe...

[roger albert]

Even if the capacitor wasn't ridiculously low in the all important figure of capacitance, a lawn and garden tractor battery could keep you from getting home too. I see people skimp and use them all the time. Often trailered home.

[Sideshow_S]

R111S, if you're hard up for fuel, consider this old idea of mine:

Ditch the cans and just let the cat spit out the exhaust fumes. (GS owners were doing this to use the full size left saddlebag.)

Gut the toolkit area (put tools in saddlebag?) and make a custom fuel cell to fit where the cans were. You could even cut up the old cans to make them appear to still exist in a semi-functional shape. Faux cans on a fuel cell. People think my idea is crazy because you would be sitting right next to the fuel is. To which I sadly need to reply: Where is the fuel normally?

Or just buy an S without ABS and make a pocketed area on the underside of the tank where the ABS computer sits.

I did see an S with Harley tanks installed where the saddlebags normally mount. I have a picture for the interested.

[captainasty]

I have placed a small YTS-7 (something like that) battery in mine and redid the mounts and changed the brain orientation. It runs just fine with it BUT you can not crank on it for a long time.

[R111S]

Thanks for all the comments...I'm always glad about the talent/knowlegde of this group.

So not enough storage to replace the battery...oh well.

I'm wondering if just adding this Capacitor in parallel to the Battery would prevent the ABS resets I get when cranking the engine...that would be enough benefit in and of itself for those of us having that issue. Especially if the Cap doesn't go "weak in the knees" in colder temps like the Battery.

I may give it a try...

[Moybin]

R111S

If you are getting ABS resets when cranking something is wrong in the starter system. It could be a weak battery, the starter solenoid has fried contacts or the starter motor coils have internal short circuiting causing them to pull more amps than normal. I doubt a capacitor will help that.

As a test, get the tupperware off, use good jumper cables tot he lugs on your battery and hook up to a full-sized cage battery. If you still get ABS resets, something is wrong with the starter.

[acidburn]

Fun thread.
My pratical view, an ulta cap set up will get you ultra stranded, we have them in R&D for other reasons, thought about it long enough to dismiss the idea.
However if a group buy is in the planning im in for one just to put it on the book case.

[Sideshow_S]

Captain, I'm guessing that's a YTZ-7S battery (gel). The smallest battery with the biggest pop. Using one in my street Hawk GT with great results. They are used by RC51 owners for track use (some on street too). I don't know if it would handle heated grips/vest/aux lights, but it should start the bike. I've cranked a fuel-flooded Hawk to life with a well charged one.

In fact, I'd go that route over the capacitor. It's probably even more weight savings total, to be honest. That little Yuasa doesn't weigh much at all and the 650 was starting on colder mornings than the S on an older stock battery.

[acidburn]

i use the YTZ-7s in both track bikes, sv650 and gsxr1000 with excellent results. keep it peaked up with a BMW adapter charger plug, excellent battery, will use it on the sv650 barely legal street project bike also.

If anyone is using that on a full sized 1100 that would be good info.
Cant believe it would last long but may be worth the weight savings and replace annually.

Side , do you have a discount deal somewhere on line for that batt, i have been paying retail, must be a deal around?
Acid

[R111S]

Originally posted by Moybin
R111S

If you are getting ABS resets when cranking something is wrong in the starter system. It could be a weak battery, the starter solenoid has fried contacts or the starter motor coils have internal short circuiting causing them to pull more amps than normal. I doubt a capacitor will help that.

As a test, get the tupperware off, use good jumper cables tot he lugs on your battery and hook up to a full-sized cage battery. If you still get ABS resets, something is wrong with the starter.

Thanks for the tips Moybin. I've cleaned the Battery Posts, Ground Lug to Tranny, and Alternator Terminals. I also cleaned the ABS Module connector contacts. It all helped for a while but cold weather brought it back again. Overnight charging before the morning ride helps most times but then on the trip home it's back to ABS reset when starting up.

I expect the cage battery will start it just fine w/o resets...I probably need to replace the Gel Battery. It was installed by the previous owner but I don't know when. It starts the engine just fine even on cold days. I've put 22K on since buying the bike in JUL2004.

One last thought is to clean the ABS Relay Terminal contacts where they plug into the harness. I'm basically chasing down all the connection oxidation points in the system before doing any part(s) replacement.

[acidburn]

any chance the rear tail light is causing reset problems.
When i went to the rear flasher the ABS trouble light stays on all the time.

[R111S]

Originally posted by acidburn
any chance the rear tail light is causing reset problems.
When i went to the rear flasher the ABS trouble light stays on all the time.

It hasn't been a problem till of late. I'm using a home made Taillight Flasher (555 Timer Circuit) built from Radio Shack components.

[Moybin]

Originally posted by acidburn
any chance the rear tail light is causing reset problems.
When i went to the rear flasher the ABS trouble light stays on all the time.

Anything that causes improper grounding could cause your problem. Der ZuperEnjineers back in der Fadderlund have a strange way of running the grounds on this bike. The ground lead runs through the ignition switch; I presume this is to make it more difficult to hotwire the bike. Couple that with what I consider to be under sized wiring and you have a recipe for weird electrical effects.

Things to consider:
Item #1 - gel batteries haven't been out in public use long enough to say what the average lifespan of the beasts is. Classic lead-acid batteries last about 4 years. In subtropical environs like Florida they last longer but fail more suddenly. Up north they start to fail after about 3 good hard winters. Gel batteries have a higher energy density, but do they last longer?

Item #2 - the starters on these bikes are the fancy new style that use high density permanent magnets instead of field coils. It makes for a smaller package, but it still requires brushes to power the armature. In making the starter smaller, did the designers also make the brushes smaller? I don't know, haven't ever had one apart. But if they did, brush wear becomes more adverse because there is less to wear out.

Item #3 - these starter circuits have a seperate starter solenoid. I think it's up in the solenoid carrier somewhere. It's smaller than the solenoid on a cage. My old Ford Ranger had a similar system, and the solenoid was much bigger. Didn't prevent the stupid thing from failing, a couple of times.

The more parts, and the more tech in those parts, the more places for failure.

[R111S]

Interesting read about Ultra Capacitor in On-Highway Trucks:

http://www.roadstaronline.com/2003/09/092a0309.asp

[R111S]

Application notes..."starting internal combustion engines with boostcaps":

http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/technical-support/application-notes.asp

[Sideshow_S]

acid, sent you a pm. Good thread going, guys. Interesting stuff, R111s.

I toured Oshkosh truck a few years ago. They are famous for the HEMTT military vehicles.

The standard models are pretty mean looking, and then they have the military pimped versions. But instead of chandelier dome lights, they had hybrid-electric setups with SuperCaps to activate various electronic devices from starting the engine to activating a hydraulic control box. The full electric mode made for a stealthier and torquier beast. The SuperCaps had some ridiculous storage capacity, but to veil my lack of electrical engineering knowledge, I cannot disclose the mention capacitance. There's a small amount of info on this site on the hybrid, but not much about the use of the SuperCaps.

http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-3-05/feature-HED-trucks.htm

The beef for this thread from the article:
"The system has no batteries, using ultracapacitors for energy storage instead. Designed for service life of 10 – 20 years, the ultracapacitors are less sensitive to extreme cold than batteries. "