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Good ideas.

Maybe the pins should be nylon (or nylon with a steel core) and the "race" machined from whatever works nicely with nylon? You could keep the tapered geometry and the pins would still be used for snugging-up. If the nylon can take the loadings.
Old 10-13-2007, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moybin View Post
The idea of metal-to-metal wearing surfaces just doesn't sit well with me.
I am having a hard time with nylon holding the back end of your bike together...
Maybe I am thinking of a different product than you have in mind.... I like nylon on my girlie's legs, but the rear of the S is subjected to all kinds of twisting and torsional forces... I would hate to see you get hurt... Nylon bearings/bushings are used on cheap products in the marketplace, while better quality crap, for sale always seems to have hardened races with metal balls..... Nylon's strength also changes considerably when subjected to heat.. is this Nylatron some kind of super duper stuff?


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Last edited by wswartzwel; 10-13-2007 at 06:51 PM..
Old 10-13-2007, 06:15 PM
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Bill:

Nylatrol/nylatron is Nylon 6 with molydisulphide added during casting. It is an industrial polymer meaning it is engineered to a specific standard (though I don't have the numbers). It is water resistant, where nylon 66 is not. Your aversion to plastic parts is understandable, but the front ends of nearly all larger construction equipment, trucks and busses have either nylon or polyethylene bushings holding the kingpins in place. The procedure for installation is to heat the kingpin to a specific temperature and plunge it into place in the plastic, causing a melt-fit that is tighter and more accurate than any machined fit.

I like the idea of a trapped bushing of nylon holding the rear end on better than about 6 each of those little tiny needles carrying the entire load of my bike against the engine torque and road roughness. As I've said before, the guy who thought that up should have his ME degree torn up and send him back to Freshman engineering!

I presume I will have to replace the Timken races as they will have false brinnelling fatigue of the surfaces and no longer be true in shape. I'm contemplating purchasing a pair of the mounting pins from BMW, then either milling a pair of flats on the pins, or knurling striations into the surface to prevent the nylon bushings from rotating on the pins.

The next thing to look at are the roller bearings at the front end of the paralever. Those are the wrong application for a bearing, too.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:39 AM
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:13 AM
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[QUOTE=Moybin;3530620]
I presume I will have to replace the Timken races as they will have false brinnelling fatigue of the surfaces and no longer be true in shape. I'm contemplating purchasing a pair of the mounting pins from BMW, then either milling a pair of flats on the pins, or knurling striations into the surface to prevent the nylon bushings from rotating on the pins.
QUOTE]
Interesting discussion....thanks for the tutorial (really!). If by the "Timken races" you mean the outer race that fits into the rear drive, it is part of the replacement bearing. I showed some pics of what I took out of mine....can't find the thread right now, but the races (both of 'em) did need to be replaced. Reference the mounting pins.....they're pretty hard. New ones are just plain beautiful. I'd have to turn my head with the first cut when milling them. If you do what you are planning, please take pics and lemme see!

Here's a pic of my old pivot bearing as it came out...inner race followed by outer race.
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:41 AM
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Here is a link to your excellent post Bob. (gotta love the cool tools in this thread)

Pivot bearing installation complete
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:55 AM
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Thanks Bill. I fished around in Pelican but never can find things very well.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:22 PM
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Here's another helpful thread with some new stuff.

http://66.236.61.177/showthread.php?t=368043&highlight=paralever
Old 10-15-2007, 06:01 AM
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Patent Infringement !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moybin View Post
Bill:

Nylatrol/nylatron is Nylon 6 with molydisulphide added during casting. It is an industrial polymer meaning it is engineered to a specific standard (though I don't have the numbers). It is water resistant, where nylon 66 is not. Your aversion to plastic parts is understandable, but the front ends of nearly all larger construction equipment, trucks and busses have either nylon or polyethylene bushings holding the kingpins in place. The procedure for installation is to heat the kingpin to a specific temperature and plunge it into place in the plastic, causing a melt-fit that is tighter and more accurate than any machined fit.

I like the idea of a trapped bushing of nylon holding the rear end on better than about 6 each of those little tiny needles carrying the entire load of my bike against the engine torque and road roughness. As I've said before, the guy who thought that up should have his ME degree torn up and send him back to Freshman engineering!

I presume I will have to replace the Timken races as they will have false brinnelling fatigue of the surfaces and no longer be true in shape. I'm contemplating purchasing a pair of the mounting pins from BMW, then either milling a pair of flats on the pins, or knurling striations into the surface to prevent the nylon bushings from rotating on the pins.

The next thing to look at are the roller bearings at the front end of the paralever. Those are the wrong application for a bearing, too.
Moybin, This is to inform you that you are verging on Patent Infringement. I spent 5 years of R&D & testing to develop my product & the patent includes Nylatron & many other common & exotic bearing materials. I have been testing 4 sets machined from Nylatron for the past 12 months, but am not ready to release them to the public. There are some unique problems in dealing with plastics. I like your thinking outside the box, but I am already there. Thanx, GSrider2
Old 11-09-2007, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by GSrider2 View Post
... you are verging on Patent Infringement. ..
WTF? Where'd you crawl out of the woodwork?

First post?

Nice introduction Nederheimer!

...we're just talkin' tech here pal.
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Old 11-09-2007, 09:11 AM
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GSrider2:

I have no intentions of going into business for myself. These are for my own use, period. I was going to make an extra set for a person who helped with taking measurements, that idea has been scrapped. As my design takes into account the natural tendency of the nylon to rotate on the pins, and requires permanent modification of the pins, I doubt there is any infringement involved.

You are welcome to the commercial market; I want to make my bike ride better.

Since that was your first post on PP I take it one of the brethren "ratted me out" to you. Thanks boys. What further reason should I cite for sharing my ideas in the future?
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Old 11-09-2007, 09:18 AM
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FYI, no rats. I follow forums to track many things, my product being one. I do not usually get involved, but when I see someone talking about producing a knock-off of my work & in the same thread someone wants to purchase that knock-off, I must protest. My work has been ripped-off in the past & I have become very cynical & protective of my work. I tend to be very forward & to the point & ment no offence, just information.
Old 11-09-2007, 09:51 AM
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GS, it's all about a better mouse trap. Moybin is a clever guy, maybe you should consider a partnership. Besides veiled threats don't go far here.
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Old 11-09-2007, 09:58 AM
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...I don't think GS is saying Moy is stealing from him so let's not jump at conclusions, nor should GS...
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:01 AM
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au contrare, bill, I think he was:

'Moybin, This is to inform you that you are verging on Patent Infringement. I spent 5 years of R&D & testing to develop my product & the patent includes Nylatron & many other common & exotic bearing materials. I have been testing 4 sets machined from Nylatron for the past 12 months, but am not ready to release them to the public. There are some unique problems in dealing with plastics. I like your thinking outside the box, but I am already there. Thanx, GSrider2'

GSrider; I take it you are the designer/manufacturer of the bronze paralever pivot bushings? Nice work if you are but still, as has been stated, veiled threats tend to not mean much here.
IF you do have a patent, please prove it.
Anyone can SAY that. Proof is in the pudding.
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:39 AM
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Again I will state, this is not a threat, veiled or otherwise, only info. If moybin did not act on this concept many years ago, then he missed the boat. As for proof of patent, I have a Provisional Patent Application filed w/ the US Patent Office which affords me protection, & machanical blue prints registered & dated. If you must see them, all you need do is stop by my shop. I do not have a problem w/ someone w/ the means & ability to produce a copy of my work for his own use, not much threat to the commercial market as this would be a rare occurence. I just do not need someone producing a possibly inferior knock-off and selling it. I have seen this done in the past & it has ruined some good reputations.
Old 11-09-2007, 11:12 AM
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GSrider2:
quote: "Again I will state, this is not a threat, veiled or otherwise, only info."

Sure came across that way to me, and apparently to others on this forum, too. Your first post, out of the blue, containing "patent infringement" = sure sounds like a veiled threat.

I have never stated that I would attempt to sell this item. I HAVE groused time and again against the supposedly superior OEM design. I'm working at my own pace for myself, no one else. After all the flack that this stirred up I don't think I will even share the results of my tests. I will do for myself and leave it at that, as that was the plan in the first place, though I thought I'd help my brothers.

As to "missing the boat": why have you taken so long to prove your design? Sure, it's not going to provide the profit margin to buy that new corporate jet, but if you thought there was money to be made, why the slow R&D cycle?

I think the tartness of your first post here has hurt your reputation with the rest of this R1100S community far worse than anything I could cook up and crash my sorry azs testing.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:03 PM
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Now let's all get along with our lives. GSrider2 has a perfectly valid point. He doesn't want me selling my part, which is fine, I didn't intend to sell my part. If he wants to see my design that's fine, too. I've NEVER made any money off my bright ideas, why should I start now? I'd rather know my brothers had access to something better than the Factory forced upon us and move on to the next problem.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moybin View Post
Now let's all get along with our lives. GSrider2 has a perfectly valid point. He doesn't want me selling my part, which is fine, I didn't intend to sell my part. If he wants to see my design that's fine, too. I've NEVER made any money off my bright ideas, why should I start now? I'd rather know my brothers had access to something better than the Factory forced upon us and move on to the next problem.

Thats MY man Moybin what said that!
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Old 11-09-2007, 02:31 PM
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...don't mention your secret super-hardened input shaft Moy...gee that sounds kinda funny...
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Old 11-09-2007, 02:45 PM
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