I Had To Lay It Down: Myth or Real?
 

This is a cool YouTube video showing a race rider overcoming an almost disastrous 'lay down' after hitting a patch of oil-dry. He stayed with the bike, combining talent, courage, and/or just great muscle-memory and reflexes and was apparently 'back in the race'. Someone commented on [another forum] that this should be a reminder to 'ride it all the way'.

We've all heard someone or other say, "I had to lay it down". My personal experience has not included 'laying it down' and am trying to envison a situation where 'laying it down' is better than 'keeping it up' (no sexual implied innuendo here, but go ahead little filthy minds, comment away:D)?

So, stick with the bike, who knows you may ride out of it, or, prematurely 'lay it down' and pray for the best? Opinions and commentary welcome.

I like to think there's always a chance the trees will part and I'll gently land back on smooth pavement and come to a classic sideways sliding stop. And all the carnage will be behind me.....When you throw the bike to the ground, you've pretty much given up all hope of ever coming out of it without damage to you, the bike or both.

I was only thinking of this the other day, from a comment a roofer made to me, I had to lay it down. I have never, in 34 years of riding had a situation present it self to me, that I have had the time to decide between laying it down or staying with the bike. It's all happened so fast that I have had little or no time to react to what's about to unfold right before me. I have just been lucky in 3 major accidents I have had that I am still alive and walking. As for the roofers comments, well lets just say we that ride no better.

Laying it down to avoid a crash??? Laying it down IS a crash!!!

I am sure that there are stories of people who may have fared better by "laying it down" but that was just dumb luck. Luck is OK, but not something I would count on when it comes to bodily injury. Tires, brakes and steering forces are much more reliable and predictable.

Laying it down is stupid and mininformed period.
Exception. When you're going to impact an object such as a semi-truck or starbucks drive-through awning, imminently, and laying it down results in a crash-and-slide-under vs a decapitation. This seems a tick far fetched, but is the only exception my pea-braincan envision.

"I had to lay it down" is poser talk for "I was in over my head, f*cked up and crashed"

It's a myth. It's usually the result of combining poor braking skills and freezing up in the face of danger resulting in washing the bike out.

+1. I think you may have hit the nail (oooops, no reference to Bubba) on the head!:D:D

I'd think a Starbuck's awning would act as a trampoline, catapulting you backwards with a double back flip where you would eventually land on your feet.

Believe it or not, this is an old topic here somewhere, with the same results you are already getting.

Hard to come up with much new Craig, but sorry I didn't use the search engine. But, hopefully the YouTube video was interesting.

That's the challenge! The one new thing (like in City Slickers)...

I tried to search but it rejected the common words, then was making me wait 10 seconds between retries.

Here's a story from Terry Poovey's website that kinda follows John's first post of staying with the bike.

From Huey : MY NAME IS HUEY , I WORKED FOR SPRINGER A WHILE AGO. TERRY AND I TALKED AFTER ONE THE INDY RACES WHERE SPRINGER WENT DOWN IN TURN 2 DURING A NATIONAL.. I COULDNT SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING, BUT I COULD TELL SOMETHING HAPPENED BY THE CROWD REACTION. IT SEEMSD JAY LOW SIDED IN 2 AND AS HE WAS SKIDDING ALONG, STILL ON THE BIKE , HE THOUGHT TO HIMSELF, I CAN SAVE THIS . HE SAID THAT HE JAMMED HIS LEFT FOOT DOWN AND GRABBED A HANDFUL OF THROTTLE, THE BIKE STOOD UP AND AWAY HE WENT.(SOMETHING MAYBE ONLY JAY COULD PULL OFF). AFTER THE RACE ,I WAS TALKING TO TERRYAND HE SAID, "HUEY, I COULDNT BELIEVE IT, I SEEN SPRINGER GO DOWN IN FRONT OF ME IN TURN 2 , BUT THEN HE PASSED ME ON THE BACK STRAIGHTAWAY."

geo

Geo, there's a thread/was a thread going on in the RT forum...you know the one. The holy grail of slow riding, the 4 foot diameter U-turn (sarcasm) and the raging debate about using front brake in slow-maneuvers a la police training. But seems the front brake can (never tried it) save your bacon depending on which way you are falling.

Good story that you posted!

i've heard the stories about laying it down to slide under a semi. never seen it or heard anybody who could prove it happened on the street. probably has.

i have watched it done by stunt guys, but the trailer was stationary, and built primarily of balsa wood and styrofoam.

laying it down is not a myth at all.
in order to get your speedway bike license, a machine with NO brakes, you had to successfully lay the bike down and stop sliding in a pre-described spot on the track.
if i had a dime for every time i've intentionally tossed a dirt bike to the ground, i'd probably have an hp2s.

the mechanics of putting a bike horizontal are fairly simple, the commitment needs to be 100% to make it work:

1. give up hope of getting around/over/under whatever is in the way.
2. feed in too much rear brake, to lock and slide the wheel, while pulling the right hand side of the bars towards you. lean back and to the left with just about all you've got.
3. put your left foot out. you're trying to emulate the "back it in" or "cross-up" position you see the supermoto and flat trck guys do. basically, sideways, but tipped back.
4. keep leaning back and pulling the bars. with enough commitment, the bike will keep coming down.
5. there comes a time while laying it down that the tires are going to leave the ground and the bike will slide on the frame/fairing/pegs/etc. although it's probably never done this before, it's VERY good at it. bikes slide well.
6. once it starts sliding, you are officially just along for the ride. it's your decision to hold on and stay with it (used as a cushion for whatever you're about to hit), or part ways and cover your own butt.

remember: you're probably more abrasive than plastic, fiberglass or frame rails, so you'll often stop before the sliding bike does. (if the bike gets behind you....hey pal...you're on your own. all i know is if the scraping behind me is getting louder, the bike is gonna start a game of aggressive "tag you're it".

laying down a bike is a good reason to wear all the gear all the time. if you throw a cow and a kiddie pool out of pickups going 80, the sliding kiddie pool is always prettier to watch than the bouncing cow.

Another +1.

The cow and kiddie pool scenario happened to me just yesterday. They must have been Christmas presents.

It hard to figure out which post to quote from because more than a couple ring true, but in my long but unremarkable riding career I have done just what Brad suggests by sliding a bike under a vehicle. The difference may have been that I abandoned ship before the crash and did in fact end up on my feet watching it happen. When your bike has no real brakes and you can't go left or right and straight ahead looks grim, I suggest that bailing is just about the best choice. In my case, it kept my perfect non injury record perfect. The bike, being a UJM street bike didn't seem to mind much either.

geo

There's a world of difference between a pro racer being able to hang onto his bike after nearly coming off of it and someone having to "lay it down".

The bottom line is that you are always better off trying to brake. Rubber has considerably more traction than chrome, plastic, steel, etc. But it does make for a funny story. I wonder where the origins of that myth stem from....

james

Excellent Pilot
 

Greetings,

That is Thomas Luthi a fine pilot! I saw him do well at Assen this year. He has a good career in front of him.

I would expect that recovery from him!

Shabby work by the track team and corner workers though. ;~((!

hmmm... sounds like the hokey-pokey!

look who's talking.
when was the last time you tossed that behemoth of a TT500 you ride in the dirt?
(or is it the other way around?)

(the TT part stands for Titanic's Twin ya know).
hokey my pokey buddy!

ps: hey, wait a second.....say....aren't you the same guy who did the on-purpose, super slo-motion bike lay down in an algae-infested creek, for all of us to watch and enjoy? twasn't that you ralfie?

you would not believe the number of times i either hear "I had to lay it down to aviod the crash" - with the perfunctory "so you decided to have an on-purpose instead of an accident" response from me, or the "so when do we learn to lay 'er down in this class? all my friends say that if you're going to ride a bike that you have to know how to do that."

the best one i heard this year was "the guy turned left in front of me, so i had to lay it down to avoid hitting the car. fortunately, the bike stopped sliding before it hit the car." after the class was all over (including learning and practising "Quick Stop Techniques"), this guy agreed with me- he should have just used his brakes.

believe me, unless you get paid to do this (or are named bradz), you are just not good enough to intentionally crash your bike. basically, that person's (anyone who utters those 6 mytical words) braking skills just suck ass. period.

i trust that someone had the decency to hand him some t.p. after the race was over?

six seven years back i was on highland near the hollywood bowl. going maybe 40, a car made the classic left turn in front of me. i made a desperate evasion, and laid the bike down. i suppose lowsiding was better than going through the windshield. but i don't see how, in a panicked and chaotic split second like that you can make any kind of "decision". it's just what happened.

bragging or horsepoo
 

Yep, everytime I crashed, it involved 'laying it down'.

I have to think though that if the stopping distance is short 'laying it down' is probably acceptable to merely riding straight into the obstacle.

There was this one time though...I was riding an H-D panhead that I'd rescued from a pile of junk to make an assembly of junk. The front brake was a disk and caliper from a Superglide but I'd mounted it to the WLA springer forks and 21 inch rim in such a way that it would cause the fork to hyper extend and cause 'significant' hopping when braking hard. Yes, it was a stupid design, I've learned so much in the succeeding 25 years.

Anyway, on a quiet residential street the predicable thing happened and a youngish girl reversed out from a driveway directly into my path. I was so distracted and involved in trying to stay seated on the pogoing bike that I actually managed to brake well enough to put the front tyre ever so lightly up against the side of her car.

That darn thing throws me 3 times per ride on average... what's worse though is when it stall while doing so... I can deal with the pain of being tossed... but the pain of getting it going again...?

I know nothing of that... and Patrick, who came swirling in to keep me company will not verify that either... :D

I don't hear that phrase a great deal but can remember the first time I heard it. It was 1972, the speaker was talking about his CB750. Not having started riding at that date, it almost made since to me.
Jim

I think it comes from that old childrens book "Lucky Chuck" by Beverly Cleary The story of a young man who got a motorcycle...

For street riding, I would much prefer to stop the bike with the rubber side down. I guess I can see the possibility of having to try and jump off rather than actually collide with something, but I suspect that would take a real presence of mind. In my world, you roll the dice and take your chances. I'll stick with the bike. As long as it is upright I am going to stop faster that when I am sliding across the pavement.

In my experience, the people who make this statement *often* just don't know how to use the brakes....

With students (BRC) who relate the stories or sage advice of their friends who ride (had to lay it down, front brakes will throw you over the bars, etc) I usually just ask them to forget all advice, keep an open mind and form their own conclusions after the course is over.

Have any of you taken a MSF ERC class? They teach rubber wheels have far more friction stop ability than plastic or metal, so NEVER lay it down. Learn how to use brakes more effectively, instead.

i just noticed that what we're talking about is basically going from vertical to tossed...on purpose...to avoid slamming into something.

what the video of Luthi is portraying, is a rider who's lost traction (because of the quick-dry on the track), and is using his knee and elbow as outriggers to stay up.

i've seen video of colin edwards doing this and asked him about it. he claims the "foot wave*" happens more often than you'd think, and many times what appears to be a knee gracefully sliding along the asphalt is actually a giant knee press in a desperate attempt to stay on board. apparently, the use of knees and elbows as outriggers to keep the bike under you has become the "go-to" desperate move that pans out more often than not.
*(it's called the "foot wave" because the outside leg usually flies up and the foot points outward, waving in the air).

i wouldn't care if they called it "the brad", i don't plan on trying it out.
what i was talking about on the previous page was how to go from vertical to tossing the bike on the ground, not replicating a boat you see on hawaiian postcards.

if you're attempting to do what's portrayed in the video...saving it by using your knee and elbows as outriggers...that's a whole different drawer of skill sets that didn't come with my toolbox. never done it. not even on the list.

i'm all for being "at one with the motorcycle", but that's a push.

I heard a lot of these stories as a kid, hanging around my step-father and his riding buddies. My step-father's Triumph 650 was set up for drag racing w/o a front brake and the rear brake worked like a light switch. Panic stops sometimes ended poorly. Saying they choose to lay it down was a cover for the their lack of ability or the bike's. No front brake was common among his friends too. Also the bike saved weight by using a headlight off a bicycle powered by two D-cells and it had a 4 inch slick in back. It went like stink but could not stop, go around corners or be driven at night.

I only rode that bike once and it gave me a good scare.

RB

don't feel too bad. stock Triumphs couldn't really be ridden much at night either. it usually came down to the bike asking- "what do you want old chap, ignition or lights? just understand, you can't have them both."

I had a get-off on an RT which was witnessed by two Pelicans. Mine was a let go rather than a laydown. I would have preferred to brake all the way; however, once the left jug was on the pavement, there was no need to hang on for the 60 foot ride to the bottom of the ravine. If faced with hitting a vehicle or whatever, I'll max brake until I hit. I don't think plastic sliding on asphalt is going to slow you up very much.

...yep, layed 'er down and got up on the shiney side and rode it out...that's they way I heard it.

Early in my riding experience I had two "off the bike" incidents - one trivial and one rather serious - and I never noticed that I had the time to make a rational decision about whether or not to "lay it down".

In fact, I specifically recall there was barely time to chirp f*** before the accident was already in progress.

I say "in progress" because the second "off the bike" incident involved me flying through the air for 50-60 feet which oddly enough gave me plenty of time to decide how I was going to hit the pavement. I can honestly say that my martial arts and gymnastic training was beneficial. Although my injuries were serious, I was not maimed or left with anything noticeably permanent to show for the experience. Part luck, no doubt, and part hasty preparation.

Here's my favorite recovery:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fa0GmdSN4A

Here's one instance where I can imagine someone "laying it down" - in embarrassed frustration: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq_-42OxZEY

Cheers,
Ian