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I don't want a pickle
 
bill pierce's Avatar
 
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Clutch splines

Well it's been a while since we have had a clutch spline thread. So here is my miserable contribution.

Tear down



Discovery, yup they are toast at 39k miles.





So the question is,
1. find a good used transmission or
2. Try to relocate the dowel pins. This is tough as I don't currently have access to a milling machine.
3. Put it back together and do it again at 80K miles.
4. Take the 7/11 credit card (357 mag) make a withdraw and by a new tranny from BMW

What would you do?
Old 01-19-2009, 10:18 AM
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:59 AM
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Bill, are you SURE the bellhousing index is off?
That WAS the conclusion many of us came to about this issue.
I feel kinda guilty looking at that as mine were perfect when I did my ceramic clutch plate 6K miles ago.
My personal recommendation is to tear down the existing tranny and put in a new shaft. It's not hard (If Moybin can do it you can, haha, Merv, just kidding )
Moybin also had his new shaft micro-hard-chrome plated. It went up to like rockwell 64.
Look up his writeup.
That's the cheapest fix. You can easily do this; the gearbox is very straightforward.
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:09 AM
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I agree with Jony have it hardened, so the clutch will wear instead of the input shaft! also Jony how do you like the ceramic clutch plate
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonyRR View Post
Bill, are you SURE the bellhousing index is off?
That WAS the conclusion many of us came to about this issue.
I feel kinda guilty looking at that as mine were perfect when I did my ceramic clutch plate 6K miles ago.
My personal recommendation is to tear down the existing tranny and put in a new shaft. It's not hard (If Moybin can do it you can, haha, Merv, just kidding )
Moybin also had his new shaft micro-hard-chrome plated. It went up to like rockwell 64.
Look up his writeup.
That's the cheapest fix. You can easily do this; the gearbox is very straightforward.
I'm not sure. I called my (machinist) boy and hes coming over. I want his input.

BMW wants $250 for an input shaft. I was thinking about having one nitrited, probably another $150 min charge. That stuff is harder than chrome and only goes on a few thousands of an inch so it doesn't screw up your clearances. I have had good success with it in the past in some industrial application that we were having shaft spline failures on.
Old 01-19-2009, 11:26 AM
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Bill let me know how it turns out!
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Dyno'd 104Hp 74.3 ft lbs torque at the rear wheel
1150 cylinders 12:1 pistons/ race cams, Lennies induct, Laser Boxercup II Exhaust, Ohlins shocks, Dymag Carbon Fiber Five Spoke wheels, Crossover tube removed, heads ported and polished Bigger valves installed intake and exhaust! SJ power filter, motoyoyo clamps , HID
Old 01-19-2009, 11:39 AM
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Update, my son Tony was here and we did a careful examination of the bike and parts. It's our conclusion that, at least in this case the fault lays in the shaft and or clutch disc it's self.

There is a good deal of lateral movement allowed for the disc to center it's self every time it is released from the pressure plate.

That along with the twisted splines leads us to believe that the factory had some quality issues with either too much free play in between the disc splines and transmission input shaft, causing a jolting effect and premature wear. Or a shaft that is just too soft.

My plan is to order a new shaft from BMW and then have it Rockwell tested against the old one. Depending on the results I will most likely send it out to be nitrated.
Does anyone know exactly what material these shafts are made of? This is the first question the metallurgy shop always asks me.

I'll let you all know how it works out.
Old 01-19-2009, 01:43 PM
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Thanks Bill !
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Dyno'd 104Hp 74.3 ft lbs torque at the rear wheel
1150 cylinders 12:1 pistons/ race cams, Lennies induct, Laser Boxercup II Exhaust, Ohlins shocks, Dymag Carbon Fiber Five Spoke wheels, Crossover tube removed, heads ported and polished Bigger valves installed intake and exhaust! SJ power filter, motoyoyo clamps , HID
Old 01-19-2009, 01:46 PM
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'Does anyone know exactly what material these shafts are made of? This is the first question the metallurgy shop always asks me.'

hey Moybin? Where are you when we need you?

I believe his hard-chrome plating was ultra-thin and had no effect on assembled clearances...
Nitriding works for me, though..the chrome, alternately, might need less assembly grease...
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Better a has-been than a wanna-be
Injection is nice but I'd rather be blown
bottles are not just for babies.....
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Old 01-19-2009, 06:03 PM
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Thank you for the quality photos. So what else will you do while you have the bike this far apart? Aside from the rebuilt tranny I assume a new clutch, pressure plate and rear main seal and lube the swingarm pivots. Anything else?

(I sense a dark, heavy foreboding as I contemplate a project of this magnitude.)

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Old 01-19-2009, 07:07 PM
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The splines look like there is more wear closer to the trans. than at the end of the shaft. I thought that was the indication of alignment problems. Not so much off center but the mating surfaces causing the shaft to run at an angle to the clutch disc.

There are great photos with text here-

http://www.vma.cape.com/~patrick/temp/kates_bike/r1100s.html

Best of luck,
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:47 AM
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Take a look at where he measures the 0.009" runout. You want to measure this. Be sure to account for the end float in the crank.
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Old 01-20-2009, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
Take a look at where he measures the 0.009" runout. You want to measure this. Be sure to account for the end float in the crank.
Thanks Anton, I did read that before it was a good write up. A picture is worth 1000 words.

There is considerable warping to the clutch housing and pressure plate.

I have never had a dry clutch apart before that didn't have the the transmission input shaft extend into a pilot bearing in the flywheel or crankshaft.

I believe that having the end of the shaft supported buy a warped housing and pressure plate could have added to the problem as well.

Please look at this illustration and give me your input. After all this is a technical discussion board!!



It seems to me that if the clutch disc and pressure plate have run-out (warped) it is in effect twisting the input shaft as it goes round and round. No matter how true and centered the flywheel is.
Old 01-20-2009, 05:57 PM
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[QUOTE=txmxrider;4428942]Thank you for the quality photos. So what else will you do while you have the bike this far apart?

Transmission seals, rear main seal and the bearings that support the input shaft. I would never reuse an old bearing. Once you pull on the outer race they are junk. I may have to replace the neutral safety switch. It was uncooperative.

So far $850 in parts.
Old 01-20-2009, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
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Please look at this illustration and give me your input. After all this is a technical discussion board!!
That image looks just the same as it did last time I looked at it.

If the housing (not the CC, not the cover) is warped you will get the results that you get. The PP and cover will probably show uneven bluing (outer edge on one side, inner edge on the other).

Replace everything in the picture.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:42 AM
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I made a trip to Inland Northwest Metallurgical Services with the old and new transmission input shafts for hardness testing. Nice folks, because they knew me that did the testing for free.

We tested on the c scale.

The results are, old shaft 56, new 58. That's hard folks. The guy helping me said that if we went up a scale or two it could even be a 60. We don't know the process they used to harden the shaft so the c scale is a conservative estimate. The most I could get by nitrating would be in the low 60s. Hardly worth the time and money.

Conclusion, it ain't the shaft that's the problem.

Next, I checked the run out on the flywheel, and also made sure that all the holes were in a perfect circle. This test eliminates the possibility of of the assembly running elliptically. or wallowing as it turns. Run out is between +.001 and - .003, not bad at all.





Next step is to get my kid to turn a shaft that will fit snugly into the pilot hole in the crankshaft and will extend in to the transmission housing. Then I can put a dial indicator on that shaft and make sure that the bore if the input shaft bearing is lined up with the crank center.

Similar to what this gentleman did.





So far the only thing I can see that may have lead to this failure are the badly warped clutch housing and pressure plate. There is also quite a bit of play between the input shaft and clutch splines on the new parts.

More to come.
Old 01-23-2009, 03:03 PM
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The boy Tony, made me a shaft today that we could use to measure alignment of the crank center to trans input shaft center. The material he used is SS rod turned ground and polished, for perfect roundness.

The rod is a press fit into the end of the crankshaft. hole size is .2395 "



We then bolted the front case of the trans to the engine with the rod extending past the input shaft. The bore gauge was then installed on the shaft, instrument reads in 10ths.







We checked the alignment by rotating the engine. Results are that the case is offset to the engine by .0145"
We check and triple checked and turned the shaft in the crank bore as well. There is no doubt. It sits high and to the right.

So the next step, Tony will make two offset (by .006-007" alignment dowels to replace the ones in the engine case.

We feel this is the best solution because we don't know if it's the engine case or the transmission case that is wrong. Buying a new trans front half at $350 or buying a good used transmission my net the same results.

Here is a shot of Tony measuring up the dowel pins.



More to come..
Old 01-24-2009, 12:57 PM
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Unless you're trying to be an "available light" stylist photographer, you really should consider using the flash for these pictures to get a better shutter speed that would prevent all of the blurring, or using a tripod. No offence, but I got very little value out of those pictures because of how blurry they are.
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
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Next, I checked the run out on the flywheel.... Run out is between +.001 and - .003, not bad at all. ...

...So far the only thing I can see that may have lead to this failure are the badly warped clutch housing and pressure plate.
Terminology gap: The clutch housing IS the flywheel. Maybe you mean the pressure plate and cover are warped.
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:56 AM
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I really admire all the work you've done. Nice job.

You really REALLY sure that offset is correct? Seems like a lot of opportunity for small measurement errors to add up. It will be very interested to see how this bolts up with the offset and how it wears in service. You've put so much work into it so far, I'd encourage you to take it off in 10K and see how it is wearing.

- Mark
Old 01-25-2009, 10:00 AM
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