2010 BMW ActiveHybrid 7,this one has lithium

[cathy521]

It's been a busy day for the PR troops at BMW as embargoes broke in Europe on two of its announcements for the Frankfurt Motor Show. We saw the ActiveHybrid X6 earlier today, and that was followed by the ActiveHybrid 7. The big sedan uses a different electric drive setup from the X6, this one being a mild hybrid co-developed with Mercedes-Benz. The combination of the electric motor and the twin-turbo 4.4-liter V8 yields 455 hp and 516 lb-ft of torque. The V8 itself has been upgraded from the standard 400 hp to 440 hp. Unlike the two-mode hybrid system in the X6, this mild hybrid has the single motor sandwiched between the engine and the new ZF 8-speed automatic transmission.

Another difference from the X6 is the use of a 120V lithium ion battery pack rather than the nickel metal hydride unit in the crossover. The hybrid drive should bump the fuel efficiency by about 15 percent overall, putting it at about 19-20 mpg combined while getting to 60 mph in about 4.8 seconds. The ActiveHybrid will be available in both standard and extra-long formats. The production version of the ActiveHybrid 7 will debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show next month and go on sale later this year. There's a video of the new 7 after the jump.

Resources from www.vogmall.com

[turboflyer]

Don't get me wrong I love technology and I love power, but a 440 HP hybrid is well kind of an oxymoron. To top it off the extra cost of some of these tree hugger hybrids far out weighs any thing you could possibly save in fuel. Yep you will have the badge, something to talk about with friends, and maybe a car pool sticker. BMW is not alone, Lexus also has a club. Now if we are talking pure electric or maybe one with a small internal combustion engine to get you home just in case, that makes some sense. Unfortunately the technology and cost graphs lines have not met at a happy spot for pure electric let alone pure electric performance vehicles. We are getting close and who know with the next evolution of batteries and or hydrogen technology we may hit that sweet spot of cost to purchase, cost to operate , and performance.

[EenyBear]

Originally Posted by cathy521

The combination of the electric motor and the twin-turbo 4.4-liter V8 yields 455 hp and 516 lb-ft of torque. The V8 itself has been upgraded from the standard 400 hp to 440 hp. Unlike the two-mode hybrid system in the X6, this mild hybrid has the single motor sandwiched between the engine and the new ZF 8-speed automatic transmission.

This might be interesting if it was about motorcycles.

The hybrid drive should bump the fuel efficiency by about 15 percent overall, putting it at about 19-20 mpg combined while getting to 60 mph in about 4.8 seconds.

I take that back. Even if this were a motorcycle it would be pretty boring.

By the way, I agree with your observations, Turboflyer.

[turnerm]

Pure horse manure window dressing.
How eco-friendly are those batteries when they need to be dumped?
What do you save in fuel? 0-3 mpg?
Buy an M5 and you'll save fuel.

[Moybin]

Originally Posted by turnerm

Pure horse manure window dressing.
How eco-friendly are those batteries when they need to be dumped?
What do you save in fuel? 0-3 mpg?
Buy an M5 and you'll save fuel.

I have to agree. Lead-acid batteries are pretty bad, but we've got a history of working with them. Lithium... go look it up and see just how toxic the crap is in large quantities.

Buy a 2002 Saturn Vue with the beater 4 banger and CVT and get better gas mileage than a 2007 Lexus top of the line hybrid. COME ON PEOPLE!!! This is all about making the Greenies feel like they finally are making a difference.

[Bob K.]

Besides my 1999 R1100S, I have been driving a 2010 Toyota Prius for almost a month now. I get 50MPG real world combined mileage! Some trips I can even beat this by a few MPG. Batteries are nickle metal hydride, and only vent water vapor as they charge/deplete, no smell.

I never thought that I would be driving a car that get 10 MPG better than my bike, with the A/C blasting and the JBL sound system cranking some classic rock.

[Moybin]

Originally Posted by Bob K.

Besides my 1999 R1100S, I have been driving a 2010 Toyota Prius for almost a month now. I get 50MPG real world combined mileage! Some trips I can even beat this by a few MPG. Batteries are nickle metal hydride, and only vent water vapor as they charge/deplete, no smell.

I never thought that I would be driving a car that get 10 MPG better than my bike, with the A/C blasting and the JBL sound system cranking some classic rock.

Luckily it does not get to sub-zero temps next to the ocean. Those who own those machines find they pay back during the deep, dark, coldest part of the winter. I've heard mileages as low at 10MPG in cold places like Montana. Might be non-urban legends, but I think it's probably close to the truth. Cold cranking amps and such...

[Dana in Philly]

Originally Posted by Moybin

This is all about making the Greenies feel like they finally are making a difference.

I thought it was about pushing the development of a particular technology that seems like a promising mid-term solution.

[cageyar]

Originally Posted by Dana in Philly

I thought it was about pushing the development of a particular technology that seems like a promising mid-term solution.

You can retain that hope, but the reality is something different. As long as 60-70% (the estimates vary depending on source) of the electricity in the US is generated by the burning of coal, plugging a car into a charger has little effect on reducing CO2 emmisions and some studies indicate an increase. Having worked in the automobile industry for over 30 years, I can tell you that the move to electric cars is being forced more by coporate PC than any viable business plan.
The current clamor for insanity like Tax-in Trade carbon credits and Chicken Little pronouncements about "global warming" have more to do with the political agenda of transferring wealth and punishing the most successful country on Earth.
The fact is that our air, since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, has never been cleaner, cars have never been so low on emissions and our environment has never been in better condition. As others have noted, unless the real world pollutors, China and India, sign on to reduce pollution, these efforts will do nothing except cripple the US economy.
We have tremendous oil resources within our control. The best interim solution is to use them effectively while the real alternatives have time to be developed into viability. Several hundred thousand caribou can't be wrong.

[EenyBear]

Curious that "cathy521" has posted twice in this motorcycle forum. First to advertise "gobrandmall" which appears to be a shoe outlet.... and now to advertise a car.

Despite the car being a BMW, the relevance to this forum is tenuous at best.
Perhaps my earlier post was too subtle in expressing my view.

Having said that, OT posts appear to attract attention and encourage conversation which is something this forum is generally designed to do. So I'll just click "ignore" and refrain from further comment.

Ian

[Deans BMW]

Originally Posted by cageyar

You can retain that hope, but the reality is something different. As long as 60-70% (the estimates vary depending on source) of the electricity in the US is generated by the burning of coal, plugging a car into a charger has little effect on reducing CO2 emmisions and some studies indicate an increase. Having worked in the automobile industry for over 30 years, I can tell you that the move to electric cars is being forced more by coporate PC than any viable business plan.
The current clamor for insanity like Tax-in Trade carbon credits and Chicken Little pronouncements about "global warming" have more to do with the political agenda of transferring wealth and punishing the most successful country on Earth.
The fact is that our air, since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, has never been cleaner, cars have never been so low on emissions and our environment has never been in better condition. As others have noted, unless the real world pollutors, China and India, sign on to reduce pollution, these efforts will do nothing except cripple the US economy.
We have tremendous oil resources within our control. The best interim solution is to use them effectively while the real alternatives have time to be developed into viability. Several hundred thousand caribou can't be wrong.

+1000, amd then some

[Dana in Philly]

Originally Posted by cageyar

As long as 60-70% (the estimates vary depending on source) of the electricity in the US is generated by the burning of coal, plugging a car into a charger has little effect on reducing CO2 emmisions and some studies indicate an increase.

I don't own a hybrid, but I sure am seeing a lot of 'em -- and not just the fugly Prius. I don't hold it against 'em that right now it's coal being burned to produce the electricity. I wouldn't want to make the perfect the enemy of the good. I look at hybrids with a longer time-scale in mind. I'm just glad to see the automakers finally developing something besides gas-powered vehicles. This is gonna happen in fits and starts, but at least it's happening now.

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by Moybin

I've heard mileages as low at 10MPG in cold places like Montana. Might be non-urban legends, but I think it's probably close to the truth.

Why? This doesn't make any sense. Even if the battery were to lose all ability to take and release a charge, you'd still have a relatively lightweight, very aerodynamic car powered by a very efficient, small 4-cyl engine. Your mileage might revert back to what you'd get in a small non-hybrid like a Honda Fit, but 10 mpg? That's some serious smoke being put out by the irrational hybrid haters.

All cars get somewhat poorer mileage in colder weather, but I wouldn't expect the effect to be any different from a hybrid vs. a conventional car.

- Mark

[cageyar]

Originally Posted by markjenn

That's some serious smoke being put out by the irrational hybrid haters.

The rational point is plugging a car into a charger does nothing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions given the current state of the electric grid and how it receives it's power and hybrid technology. If it makes you feel good to drive one, you know more socially responsible, go ahead-Disneyland is just down the coast.
The current clamor for hybrids is simply pushing a unproven technology to test on the public with their hard earned dollars while sustainable solutions are developed. Opinions can vary but IMO, we would be far better to produce our own domestic oil resources that we have in abundance, continue to increase the gasoline engines performance and give the alternatives time to become viable.
Plugging a car into a charger accomplishes nothing except the getting the same feeling as a good long toke.
If we wait long enough, the Chinese and Russians will get all the oil from the Gulf borders with their planned drilling operations off the coast of Cuba.

[roger albert]

+1.


And are the anti hybrid folks (most obviously w/o a good engineering background) doing apples to apples comparisons. I.e. kilo-watt-hours or BTUs or net-output or whatever relate-able unit you choose, to compare units of pollution per said energy unit, in a static plant (coal or whatever) and a gas or diesel I.C. engine? Coal is not as clean as we want, but in the economies of scale and pollutant scrubbing a large fixed plant allows, even the coal looks pretty good. Coal looks bad compared to LNG/Solar/Hydro, sure. I'll give you that.
But a large plant compared to a BUNCH of small I.C. motors (even as clean as today's are, which is admittedly very very clean) still looks good.

Long term, there will not be any more fossil fuels. The only intelligent debate is as to when. We ARE running out, w/o doubt. Through various means, we can make more electric energy via renewable means. It only makes sense that we push the technology for transportation in that direction.

You also have to look at the fact that we need much petroleum for lubrication and other non automotive manufactured goods. It's used in a LOT more than just fuel tanks. We better save a bit of it for that.

Sometimes, much as I detest big govt (or my cool city's stupid oppressive regional govt) it sometime takes a govt initiative to get things rolling for big projects and changes (Rural and regional electrification, Interstate Highways, Space Program, National Defense, Genome Project, Alternate Energy, etc etc) or at least to spur them on a bit.

I'm not a giant Hybrid fan, but I see merit in value in starting the technological march.
I'm glad the greens are jump-starting it, whether it's a true immediate value proposition or not.

Like it or not, they're doing you or your descendants a favor.

And yes, much of this is undermined by lack of action in India and China.
Work to be done there for sure.

[cageyar]

While I only went to engineering school but didn't graduate, I have had the opportunity to work with many automotive engineers at Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. They've made it clear to me that this technology in its current state is not ready for retail distribution and it isn't doing anything to reduce green house emissions.
Another item that people seem to forget is that there is no profit in these cars. This is typical when one is forced to bring to market technical solutions before they are ready.
But hey, in the new world order, profits and corporations are evil and Obama knows what will work. What do you think these imbeciles will do when lower corporate profits mean less tax revenue all the way through the chain from Tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers, the dealer network which has been imploded and down to me.
Less revenue means time to raise tax rates. Brilliant!
The one's who stand to gain the most from the so-called "green' initiative is vermin like Al F***ing Gore and his Generation Investment Management company:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54528

[markjenn]

Good post Roger.

Hybrids are not a total solution by any means, but they are a very effective and completely proven way of raising gasoline efficiency on current vehicles through regenerative braking, eliminating idling, and optimizing engine efficiency. Further, with the advent of plug-in hybrids, they provide an excellent way to slowly shift personal transportation energy use away from traditional fossil fuels over to renewable resources that are on the grid while battery technology develops.

I do agree that hybrids, particularly plug-ins, need to start paying their way in the energy usage discussion and stop assuming that electrical energy is free, both with respect to cost and emissions. GM's "230 mpg" claim for the Volt disgusted me and even the government was recitant to point out the absurdity of the claim given how they now have a vested interest in GM's success.

Hybrids are not the solution, but they play a key role, especially in the transition phase of the next 30 years or so.

- Mark

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by cageyar

They've made it clear to me that this technology in its current state is not ready for retail distribution and it isn't doing anything to reduce green house emissions.
Another item that people seem to forget is that there is no profit in these cars.

You've got to be kidding. Toyota is making huge money on the Prius and the technology is completely "ready for retail distribution" - heck, it was ready nearly a decade ago. The battery pack is warranted for ten years and there have been virtually no claims, even on the early models. The Prius consistently leads the pack in reliability rankings. And in models where a hybrid model and a non-hybrid model are made on the same chassis (e.g., the Ford Escape), the hybrid model is usually more reliable.

- Mark

[cageyar]

Originally Posted by markjenn

Hybrids are not the solution, but they play a key role, especially in the transition phase of the next 30 years or so.

I agree they are not the solution, I agree that the technology should be developed but I don't agree there is any net positive impact and IMO, there reverse is true when you take into account the coal burning issue, no or scant profit issue and the negative impact on revenue.
Hell, let's all vote for Tax-In-Trade, have our electric bills increase dramatically and go to Al F***ing Gor's house for a barbecue because he's the only one who will be able to afford it. (satire is a ancient form of communication-let's not get all wound up-everybody's made good points) I just don't like Algore!

If I blow off steam, does it add to green house gas emmisions..oh, that's right. I'm doing that when I'm breathing. I forgot, King Obama. I'm sorry.

[cageyar]

Originally Posted by markjenn

You've got to be kidding. Toyota is making huge money on the Prius and the technology is completely "ready for retail distribution" - heck, it was ready nearly a decade ago. The battery pack is warranted for ten years and there have been virtually no claims, even on the early models. The Prius consistently leads the pack in reliability rankings. And in models where a hybrid model and a non-hybrid model are made on the same chassis (e.g., the Ford Escape), the hybrid model is usually more reliable.

- Mark

Toyota is not making "huge" money on the Prius. They are making small money on each vehicle because they did start early. However, most of their profits are in the form of the licensing fees they charge to companies like Ford to produce their version of a hybrid. If the vehicle had to stand on it's own, in the market segment, it would have already been discontinued. If you have some research to show otherwise, I'd love to see it. The reason Hyundai and our Korean friends are so far "behind" releasing a hybrid is that they refused to pay Toyota's vig. You are simply wrong.

"Also of note is that the new Prius may be less profitable than its smaller rival. The Nikkei adds that the gross profit margin on the latest Prius, which goes on sale in Japan in May for as little as $21,000, is likely to be in single digits this year." Business Week, 4/09