Outriggers

[kpolito99]

Hey -

No fun intended with regard to the recent crash bar thread.

Does anyone know what BMW does with the outriggers or training wheels that they typically use during wet ABS brake demonstrations at bike events around the US?

I have seen the ABS demo at numerous bike events where a rider goes spiraling out of control a non ABS equipped bike and the rider with ABS effortlessly comes to a halt on the same wet road.

I am thinking about teaching someone to ride who wants to buy my R1100S but I am not interested in having her get hurt or damage my bike.

Yeah - I know we should probably purchase her a beater, but I think the ABS is a great advantage for a newbie and would rather just get her some saddle time on my bike without scratching it up.

Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zv3Sacl7JQ&feature=channel_page

[markjenn]

I think this is custom fabrication stuff and not readily available at the consumer level, at least not at reasonable cost. And every installation I've seen has involved major mods to the donor bike (e.g., welding to the frame).

- Mark

[kpolito99]

Originally Posted by markjenn

I think this is custom fabrication stuff and not readily available at the consumer level, at least not at reasonable cost.

- Mark

Mark-

You are probably correct, but I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask. I seriously doubt they are sold commercially and was hoping some odd collector type managed to snag a set for kicks.

I might make a set just for kicks and teach my girlfriend how to shift and simply ride around the neighborhood.

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by kpolito99

I might make a set just for kicks and teach my girlfriend how to shift and simply ride around the neighborhood.

I think your instinct to just put her on a smaller bike initially is good. Even better, just enroll her in the beginner MSF course - they supply the bikes and she'll learn properly in a non-threatening situation away from cars. After the course, she'd probably be reasonably safe to ride yours if she can physically handle the bike.

I think in an effort to keep your bike from getting scratched up, you might end up increasing the her risk as the outriggers would be at risk to getting snagged on parked cars, curbs, etc. And cornering is very unnatural with them as lean angles are very limited. I believe they're only designed for testing purposes in a straight line in parking lots, not as training wheels for the street.

Overall, just a bad idea, even if you could do it.

- Mark

[hawkeyejohn14]

Originally Posted by markjenn

I think your instinct to just put her on a smaller bike initially is good. Even better, just enroll her in the beginner MSF course - they supply the bikes and she'll learn properly in a non-threatening situation away from cars. After the course, she'd probably be reasonably safe to ride yours if she can physically handle the bike.

I think in an effort to keep your bike from getting scratched up, you might end up increasing the her risk as the outriggers would be at risk to getting snagged on parked cars, curbs, etc. And cornering is very unnatural with them as lean angles are very limited. I believe they're only designed for testing purposes in a straight line in parking lots, not as training wheels for the street.

Overall, just a bad idea, even if you could do it.

- Mark

+1 on MSF
The smaller bikes are confidence boosters and better to drop an older non-plastic faired bike w/o all the subsequent damage.

[SergioK]

Originally Posted by markjenn

i think your instinct to just put her on a smaller bike initially is good. Even better, just enroll her in the beginner msf course - they supply the bikes and she'll learn properly in a non-threatening situation away from cars. After the course, she'd probably be reasonably safe to ride yours if she can physically handle the bike.

+1

[bradzdotcom]

if it makes you more comfortable, put her through the MSF dirt bike school first: http://www.dirtbikeschool.com/

then the MSF basic ridercourse.
http://www.msf-usa.org/

to avoid any/all scratches, dents, dings and broken components on your bike, get her something of her own to ride when she's done with the street course.
you're probably gonna have to anyway....

[flatbutt]

IMHO anyone who learns to ride with those outriggers in place would need to learn all over again without them as a safety net.

Remember the riders that put the bike through its paces on the wet road with the outriggers are already experienced.

[kpolito99]

Guys-

Thanks for all the concern and suggestions to enroll her in the MSF course. We were already planning for her to take the course and I have suggested that she read David Hough's book, "Proficient Motorcycling".

I didn't know that MSF had a dirt bike course. In truth, I am a bit more concerned with her learning how to shift than I am steering the bike and braking.

I was leaning towards a small dirt bike and starting her off in a grass field but after visiting several motorcycle dealerships, I have been cautioned that if she intends to ride on the street she should learn on the street.

I have taught plenty of other people to ride but they already new how to shift a manual tranny in a car. Guess I should spend more time forcing her to drive my car and then just replace the clutch before letting her try to ride a motorcycle.

Just to be clear, the training wheels were never intended to go out of the neighborhood and were more for getting her comfortable with starting off and learning to shift.

[SergioK]

You're a selfless man... I wouldn't sacrifice my dry clutch to teach a newbie how to ride. In fact, for the price of a clutch R&R you could buy a beater bike.

[kpolito99]

Originally Posted by SergioK

You're a selfless man... I wouldn't sacrifice my dry clutch to teach a newbie how to ride. In fact, for the price of a clutch R&R you could buy a beater bike.

I am not that selfless. My 2002 BMW 325i sport wagon has almost 100K miles and when I purchased it with about 64K the self adjusting clutch seemed to have been wearing irregularly. You sort of have to feather the clutch more than usual because normal engagement from a dead standstill causes a chatter.

I would like to replace the clutch with a higher performance model and lightweight flywheel anyway. If I let her think she helped to burn up my clutch I will get less flack when I spend the money to replace it.

Most likely I will replace the flywheel and do the clutch service myself. I like tinkering with my toys and do not like paying for people to do things that I know how to do myself.

[SergioK]

My 2000 323ci just clicked over to 150k and just now the clutch is starting to have a bit of chatter when engaging from a standstill. If you go with a lightweight flywheel, be sure the person who installs it knows what they are doing. A friend had the UUC flywheel installed improperly and after a couple months the car was in the shop needing a new clutch.

[hawkeyejohn14]

LOL I wish I had thought that one up.

Any ideas on who's clutch/flywheel after market parts you are going with at this time?

I lack the training and education that some of you here seem to have when it come to being able to do more than change oil or adjust valves etc...

My point is to ask the question "what kind of performance gains are you expecting with a lighter flywheel? Why doesn't BMW use a lighter one to begin with? Just curious as I am always learning as much as I can.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by kpolito99

...............I was leaning towards a small dirt bike and starting her off in a grass field but after visiting several motorcycle dealerships, I have been cautioned that if she intends to ride on the street she should learn on the street.
................

I don't agree with that sentiment. A bunch of us here are former dirt riders. I rode enduro for a lotta years before jumping to the street. Yes there are some big differences. But I don't freak out when the back tire tries to catch up with the front one!

[SergioK]

A lighter flywheel helps the engine spin up faster since there's less mass. The downside is you have to spin the RPMs up allot more when starting from a standstill in order to prevent stalling the engine. For daily driving it'd be annoying I imagine.

[hawkeyejohn14]

Originally Posted by SergioK

A lighter flywheel helps the engine spin up faster since there's less mass. The downside is you have to spin the RPMs up allot more when starting from a standstill in order to prevent stalling the engine. For daily driving it'd be annoying I imagine.

Thank you....

I won't now try to pass this off as my own info on another board as I usually just have time for this place. LOL

[frozensun]

Originally Posted by kpolito99

Guys-

I didn't know that MSF had a dirt bike course. In truth, I am a bit more concerned with her learning how to shift than I am steering the bike and braking.

My wife took the course but she never drove manual so i understood your concern


she;s ok but no confortable with the shifting system sice is not a reflex that she has

Aprilia has a nice automatic bike (CVT Transmission) Mana 850, look it up, is good looking bike

the other choice is the uglier/too expensive honda DN-1

[shreddr]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

I don't agree with that sentiment. A bunch of us here are former dirt riders. I rode enduro for a lotta years before jumping to the street. Yes there are some big differences. But I don't freak out when the back tire tries to catch up with the front one!

+1

The outrigger thing is obviously a bad idea, not only for the difficulty of actually fabricating a setup, but I would guess its kind of hard to force the bike to crash, and then have the outriggers catch you. Its like falling backwards and someone catching you, easy in principal, probably very difficult in practice.

Back to the dirt riding. As flatty mentioned when you ride on the dirt you get used to the bike being a bit squirrely and don't freak out when the back tire spins, or you get a little sideways in the gravel. One of the biggest learning curves I had on the dirt was saving it, rather than crashing. As a beginner, if you think you are falling off, you let go. Ever see a little kid learning to ride a bicycle? As soon as they think they are gonna fall over, both hands come off the bars, and they try to step off, at that point a crash is inevitable. So learning that a motorcycle needs its head (horse term) is very important. Another thing you get from dirt riding is the ability to really find the limits of the front brake. You lock it up, fall off, go over the bars, whatever, you are much better doing that on the dirt than on the pavement. Once you really get the feeling for sliding BOTH wheels either under power, or brakes, then you understand the big difference between 2 wheels and 4. After that going to a road riding school is very beneficial, especially if they emphasize defensive driving. In this day and age of multitasking behind the wheel, its ALL about expecting something stupid from someone in a car, and not so much about where to start your turn in.

my $0.02

[kpolito99]

As someone already mentioned the lighter flywheel allows the engine to spin up quicker and consequently the motor feels a bit more responsive. I have put them in other four cylinder cars and never found issue with stalling. I guess like anything it is what you are used to driving.

I will share that I do not care for the clutch delay valve (CDV) in my e46 BMW. It seems like the clutch is slipping all the time and will definitely not be retained when I upgrade the clutch.

I have not started shopping yet because I have another hobby car apart at the moment. I try to keep from starting too many projects at the same time.

The UUC flywheel with OEM M5 clutch seems to get good press, if I am not mistaken they just had a sale on clutch kits for Labor Day. I have installed several J&B Racing flywheels in other BMWs and they seem to be very well made.

If I had to guess, the factory does not install lightweight flywheels because 1) they are more expensive to manufacture and 2) they may make the car seem to idle less smoothly.

An aluminum flywheel has a hardened steel inset as a wear surface for the clutch disc. The extra machining operations increase the cost over a one piece steel configuration.

The heavier flywheel contributes to smoothing out the engine pulses at slower operating speeds and often times a small displacement engine with a lightweight flywheel will seem as though it is hunting at idle.

I am going to look into getting an older road bike in addition to teaching my girl to drive my car. We will just have to keep her bundled up right and make sure that she always rides prepared for a fall. We only ride on the street in jeans with boots, jacket, gloves and helmets. I probably put he in my sport girdle with butt, hip and knee pads when she starts trying to ride on her own.

[kpolito99]

Great suggestion Shredder!

I will speak with her about the dirt bike again, but I think she has her heart set on riding on the street and I am sure you all know how telling a woman anything goes.

I can only make suggestions and hope for the best. I have to tell you I was surprised when the dealer recommended starting on the street.

I didn't look at the price tag of any dirt bikes, but I have to imagine the low end ones are less expensive than most road bikes.