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Do not take too seriously
 
throttlemeister's Avatar
 
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You guys are scary. I haven't touched a bicycle since the day I got my drivers license, but I'm betting some of you spend more on them peddle thingies than I do on my motorcycles. I guess I just have a problem understanding why anyone would want to peddle if there is a wonderful invention like the internal combustion engine available.

But to each their own. However, if you ever come to Europe to ride the Alps, please leave the peddles at home and rent a motorcycle because them crazies imitating Armstrong are soooooo annoying with their insane downhill speeds and complete refusal to be aware of other traffic, let alone give some room. (try passing a bicycle doing 65mph on a 10%+ decline AND scrub off enough speed to make that next hairpin turn...these guys barely even slow down for those turns! )
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BMW R1100S 'Bumble Bee' | HyperPro 3D F&R | motoyoyo clamps | Staintune | some other bits
BMW K1200S 'tri-color ICBM' | WP ESA rebuild to specifications | lots of other bits

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Old 01-02-2010, 04:21 PM
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Old 01-02-2010, 04:41 PM
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unsafe at any speed
 
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OK.. I am a little late into the game... but here are a few pics of what we have.

My son and I have Specialized MTB bikes. Mine a Rockhopper, and his is a Sport.




My wife has Specialized Mika, and I just got my oldest daughter a Mika, for college running around, from her house in Fayetteville to the U of A campus. I put slicks on the daughters bike since she won't be off road with it.



(Bumblebeemer... check out the forks on my GS.... Best mod ever for that bike)

Here is my old Kawasaki MTB...




I had never ridden a road bike until this past July when i bought this..


(Droptarotter I was able to clean up the tape with some 409 spray)

Totally changed my life... I ride every chance I get... Have lost 25lbs.... and feel great...
I am hitting the trainer a bunch now that winter is here, but have become pretty good at climbing hills, and distanced myself today on some pavement after an MTB ride with some buds that have been riding for years.
I have noticed a big difference between MTB guys and Road riders... It seems the road guys are more serious about gear, and equipment, and not as apt to joke around as much on rides. Where the MTB guys are all about fun??? Maybe it is just the ones I have met... but it seems to be creating a stereotype in my way of thinking.

My wife wanted to do road riding with me so I bought her a Specialized Dolce Elite.



She has done a couple 30 mile rides with me which is a fun way to spend time together... Plus the cool shorts she wears

Todays short ride... It was in the 20s when we started...

http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/ViewTrip/593034
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Bill Swartzwelder
2002 R1100S Prep/2006 BMW R1200GS
1969 BSA StarFire

Last edited by wswartzwel; 01-02-2010 at 05:09 PM..
Old 01-02-2010, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
dics brakes look cool
Answered your own question quite well - all the functional factors were negatives.
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2010 MG Griso 8V
2000 R1100S (retired)
Old 01-02-2010, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throttlemeister View Post
because them crazies imitating Armstrong are soooooo annoying with their insane downhill speeds and complete refusal to be aware of other traffic, let alone give some room. (try passing a bicycle doing 65mph on a 10%+ decline AND scrub off enough speed to make that next hairpin turn...these guys barely even slow down for those turns! )
And worse, they're doing it wearing lycra. Kind of makes us look wimpy in the full leathers.
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Old 01-02-2010, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wswartzwel View Post
Totally changed my life... I ride every chance I get... Have lost 25lbs.... and feel great...
Excellent!! I guess that answers TM's question as to why.
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2000 R1100S (retired)
Old 01-02-2010, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lyon View Post
And worse, they're doing it wearing lycra. Kind of makes us look wimpy in the full leathers.
Yup.........sometimes I wonder when I am doing 90kmh downhill with my hands on the bars at the stem and my nose on the stem.......and I am looking at a tire no wider than my thumb?
Same corner speeds.......but I am higher up...........and with the added benefit of less clothing? HMMMMMMMM..........what is safer?
At least with road racing......in a corner......you are usually on the ground already.

All that being said.........I won't give up my bicycles.
Cheers
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09 HP2 Sport,07 R1200S,05 KTM 640 Adventure,00 KTM 520 EXC,85 Yamaha RZ350,82 R100S,72 Hodaka 125 Wombat
Old 01-02-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
I raced for 12 years, but i don't necessarily believe that the negligable weight penalty keeps them off.
Road or dirt? I'm guessing the latter based on everything you mentioned because the folks who race road bikes (real or imagined) are obsessed with bike weight, e.g., http://weightweenies.starbike.com/ offers a pretty good glimpse into gram-conscious world of roadies. You can also throw aero drag in there since discs also don't fair well in the wind tunnel compared to streamlined calipers that blend in with the fork crown or hide behind the seat tube cluster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
it is easier to slow a spinning wheel at the rim than at the hub, so a rim brake will take less force.
Only if you ignore all of the other factors involved in how bicycle rim brakes work compared to discs: how'd you like to trade out your R1200s discs for a caliper brake with rubber brake blocks that pinch the rim? Come on, you've got a mountain bike with discs; did it take more brake lever force to hook up your wheels using the rim brakes you used in the early days or the discs you're now using? That discs also mitigate issues with muddy or bent rims is the icing on the cake that make them ideal for off-road use. Note: I've used disc brakes on and off-road since '98, mechanical and hydraulic, as well as various types of rim brakes for the last 38 years just as a point of reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
The larger diameter road wheels require a stronger spoke pattern when you are stopping the hub rather than the rim, a radialy laced front wheel wont take kindly to aggressive disc stopping.
See increased weight comments, above. Beefier hubs, rims and spoke networks are all part of the weight equation that adds about 3/4 to a full pound of weight to a bike. Remember, weight weenies will spend $1k-$2k to get pound off a road bike and excess grams = a need for more watts of power on climbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
in general, roadies resist change for the most part and only adopt new technology after everybody else has.
This was very true years ago, before the tri-geeks turned bicycle technology into an obsession and Greg Lemond beat Laurent Fignon in a time trial using wind-cheating technology while Fignon did not, opening up the flood gates for roadies. Ever since then, road cyclists have quickly embraced whatever bicycle frame and component manufacturers can get approved by the various amateur and professional cycling organizations. In regard to the latter, the UCI does remain a bit stodgy on things, e.g., disc brakes still aren't approved for use during UCI Cyclocross events and are certainly not permitted on road bikes. So, as I said earlier, until discs show up on pro racing bikes don't expect to see them on the replica-racer bikes that dominate the $1k - $5k core road bike market, never mind on the $5k+ uberlight exotic bikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
with all that said, dics brakes look cool, and are low maintenance.
I'd say both are pretty subjective, particularly when it comes to road bikes. Even as simple as mechanical systems like Avid's BB7 is, getting and keeping rotors true can be a hassle for folks who aren't careful with their wheels when they're off the bike and disc brake pads wear down much faster than rim brake blocks given the way they work, i.e., higher friction with equal hand effort.

Just my .02 as someone who has a couple 17lb road bikes and what would be a 26lb tandem if it didn't have couplers that allow it to be broken down for travel; all of them could have been lighter for a price.

Last edited by TandemGeek; 01-02-2010 at 08:33 PM..
Old 01-02-2010, 08:25 PM
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so you are a weight weenie, i get it, and knew many of them, in fact when I was racing mountain bikes i went faster on lighter bikes, so i get it. if the UCI hasn't approved disc brakes then the manufacturers aren't going to be quick to test the waters. if they were allowed there would be some experimentation i am sure.

i would question the weight drag of a 1/8" thick 6" diameter rotor as a reason not to use them, but i know how hairs get split, and roadies are anal about any data, so if there was even one study done, then the hair splitters will avoid it.

regarding the braking force at the edge of a rim or at the hub, this is just straight physics, the rim is spinning faster than the hub, so given an equivalent coefficient of friction and clamping force there will be more energy captured at the rim than at the hub during braking, and hence more braking force.

i know all the benefits of disc brakes on mountain bikes, which is why i started using them quite a while ago. i had a mountain cycle front end on a hardtail back in the late 90's. it was awesome, but the fork was super heavy, and that era predated a lot of the lesser weight/durable products, so it ended up being a non benefit.

being a moto guy and seeing the mx bikes go from drum to disc back in the 80's along with the increased braking force and lower maintenance makes my subjective judgement about discs pretty strong.

in a nutshell i understand why disc brakes aren't on road bikes. but i gave up the weight weenie OCD a long time ago, its all about the ride for me anymore, and if i am riding, its all good.
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Last edited by shreddr; 01-03-2010 at 06:08 AM..
Old 01-03-2010, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
so you are a weight weenie, i get it,
Not really, it's just where the market has gone and given that I'm a smallish person as is my wife, even 10-year old road bikes made out of carbon, titanium, aluminum or lightweight steel will come in under 18 lbs using contemporary components and lightweight wheels and tires. The real weight weenies are getting their bikes down to 11 lbs, which is pretty insane: they ain't crash worthy at that weight. Even the UCI won't allow a bike to weigh less than 15 lbs, a standard that was set back in 2000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
if the UCI hasn't approved disc brakes then the manufacturers aren't going to be quick to test the waters. if they were allowed there would be some experimentation i am sure.
Actually, it's the other way around. Manufacturers are the ones who have to approach the UCI and apply for rules changes. A few years back, Cannondale and a disc brake manufacturer (at least I think it was Cannondale) had applied for the UCI's approval of discs in cyclocross (CX) events. They already had a new CX bike designed and in production and the UCI say no. At first it was a BS thing where the UCI stated the request hadn't been made far enough in advance of the season, but they subsequently held their ground and still haven't approved discs for use in UCI-sanctioned CX events. Some of the other organizations that sanction CX events have approved the use of discs but even then they aren't all that pervasive in the CX pelotons at those events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
i would question the weight drag of a 1/8" thick 6" diameter rotor as a reason not to use them, but i know how hairs get split, and roadies are anal about any data, so if there was even one study done, then the hair splitters will avoid it.
It's been studied and analyzed to death and even when you factor in removing brake bosses and other frame / fork changes that reduce weight in one place on a bike, the weight you put back on to add disc mounting tabs and beef up the rear stays and forks at their distal ends + the weight of the disc calipers, rotors and beefier wheels (hubs, spokes & rim), you end up with about a 300g - 400g net increase in weight + added aero drag. Given the way roadies analyze meaningless things like .5% reductions in aero drag on a given rim or rotating mass that has a factor of .2% efficiency loss during initial acceleration, any gram count that has more than two digits is considered huge, even if it's really not. After all, a good dump before you ride will reduce your loaded bike's weight by a couple hundred grams, easy....

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
regarding the braking force at the edge of a rim or at the hub, this is just straight physics, the rim is spinning faster than the hub, so given an equivalent coefficient of friction and clamping force there will be more energy captured at the rim than at the hub during braking, and hence more braking force.
Unfortunately, the coefficient of friction and clamping forces of rim and disc brakes are not equal; just spray some water on a disc rotor after even a moderately hard stop and you'll gain a quick appreciation of just how much more brake energy is developed by the disc system. Even Magura's older hydraulic rim brake systems don't develop anything that approaches the mechanical advantage a disc caliper develops even if you null out compression losses in the softer brake blocks and deflection in the rim's sidewall / brake track. There is almost no compression loss in the disc brake system and what are usually metallic disc brake pads made from the same material you'll find on our motorcycles develop friction that is several orders of magnitude higher than even the most aggressive rim brake blocks.... noting that the latter wear out rim brake tracks in short order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddr View Post
its all about the ride for me anymore, and if i am riding, its all good.
Amen to that brother.

Last edited by TandemGeek; 01-03-2010 at 07:12 AM.. Reason: typos
Old 01-03-2010, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
Amen to that brother.
it appears we are in total agreement then!

BTW regarding the braking force, I mentioned equivalent frictional and clamping forces, i know that disc brakes are higher in both...
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Old 01-03-2010, 07:07 AM
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it appears we are in total agreement then!
Indeed, which when it comes down to the important stuff is most often the case.


Last edited by TandemGeek; 01-03-2010 at 07:24 AM..
Old 01-03-2010, 07:16 AM
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My ten year old hard tail that started life as my in-between bike (rigid Gary Fisher on one side, full suspension Y22 on the other). As time went on this ended up being the bike that I road the most and have taken it all around the country with me. Still running strong after all these years of much off-road abuse; I just keep it tuned and replace parts as needed. Although I think I see a 29er in my future
Spent 2 hours with it today at the coast, riding single track in the snow. Fun Stuff, albeit a little cold (15 degree's not counting the windchill. See the snowflakes blowing sideways!)





Decided to get into road biking a couple of years ago and traded my Y22 for this trek 1500 with some extra's. I have been riding mountain bikes for so long and didn't realize what I was missing until I started riding this! Still prefer the dirt, but the speed on the road is addicting.
I commute on this 3-5 days a week from late March until early November, do clubs rides and a few metric and full centuries. The only downside to road riding is it has cut into my motorcycling time a bit, but it has been worth every minute of it!






My wife's bikes are an entry level hard tail that she likes just fine on fire roads and mild single track (she's not too interested in rock gardens).
Then she saw how much fun I was having on the road bike that we picked up the Fuji Finest last year so we could ride together.




You guys have some beautiful bikes to say the least. Has me dreaming of warmer weather that's for sure. I especially like those tandems! Very very nice I always thought the wife would get a kick out of that, though I think I would be pulling the both of us through the miles LOL
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:06 AM
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Time for old school. I bought my Raleigh International in '74 for a trip down the coast. Still my only road bike. Most parts have been replaced in 35 years of use, including a repaint in the early 90s and it needs another now. Campy Super Record hubs from the 80s. Shimono Dura Ace for changing gears and stopping. Head set is original with indexed steering increasing with age. Bought a new head set 15+ years ago but have not gotten around to installing it yet.

A couple years ago I thought about getting a new bike but then the weakest part right now is between my neck and toes. While taking these photos I realized it needs some work and a little love.



Classic lug work-







And here is the beef, I am on the right-

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RBMann- The road is his workshop, and his trips are opportunities to do much needed repairs. -Bill S.
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Old 01-03-2010, 03:57 PM
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Sweet Raleigh.
I sold Raleighs for several years in my bike store. Their Reynolds 531 frames rode very nicely-what is that frame, 60-61CM? Nice long top tube with a relatively long wheelbase-rear wheel clearance to seat tube.
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Old 01-03-2010, 04:33 PM
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unsafe at any speed
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBMann View Post

And here is the beef, I am on the right-


That shot reminds me of this guy... Maybe thats why it was given to you at Christmas

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2002 R1100S Prep/2006 BMW R1200GS
1969 BSA StarFire

Last edited by wswartzwel; 01-03-2010 at 05:06 PM..
Old 01-03-2010, 04:48 PM
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I also tend to hang onto stuff if it still works. Rode my '86 Olmo for 10+ years before finally updating to a Serotta (now 8 years ago). The biggest improvement over the classic bikes is the bar-end and indexed shifter - no more reaching down and no more adjusting the sound away.
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Old 01-03-2010, 04:53 PM
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Cage-

It is a 62cm and sort of like a R1100S. It is not pretending to be a race bike but works for most riding and is comfortable. After all these year on the same bike anything else I try just feels weird.

Bill-

It took me a while but after looking really hard I got it. Bare forearms, right? Woody is going to retire in Moab with CK.

John-

The bike had bar-ends until the late 80s when I went to the down-tube shifters and it is an indexed 6 speed. Sometimes for fun I put on the 42-45 chain rings and a straight block 13-18 freewheel.
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RBMann- The road is his workshop, and his trips are opportunities to do much needed repairs. -Bill S.
* 2000 S, color-Salmon 100K+ * '09 F650GS twin
* '83 GPZ 550-gone to a newbie * '75 CB400F-retired to AZ.
Old 01-03-2010, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
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The bike had bar-ends until the late 80s when I went to the down-tube shifters and it is an indexed 6 speed.
I actually meant the newer kind that are integrated into the brake levers that you shift with the sideways push. I forgot about the ones that are literally on the bar-ends -- did they not work well or did you just prefer the old school version on the down tube?
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Old 01-03-2010, 06:33 PM
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The bar ends were not indexed, they worked OK. I changed when I went from the 5 speed freewheel to 6 speeds and the frame shifters were included and indexed.
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RBMann- The road is his workshop, and his trips are opportunities to do much needed repairs. -Bill S.
* 2000 S, color-Salmon 100K+ * '09 F650GS twin
* '83 GPZ 550-gone to a newbie * '75 CB400F-retired to AZ.
Old 01-03-2010, 06:53 PM
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