Build Quality - KTM vs BMW
 

One of the many things that I have absolutely no friggin idea about :o

I was wondering what the build quality is like especially between the 990adv vs GSA and what are the important areas on these bikes concerning stress/fatigue and why what is better :rolleyes: (that's a see? I told ya? I know nothing kinda rolleyes - not sarcastic, well maybe that is sarcastic I dunno)

Would love to know a bit of history too, how do the differing roles of people/machines at a plant communicate in an effective manner - what's an example of a poor process vs an excellent one?


PS
This place rocks! I gotta say, it's as funny as hell...excepting the pissweak replies I usually get - and no that's not an invitation to abstain btw

KTMs
 

G'day mate,

I haven't owned a KTM but spent plenty time looking and drooling over them. Ive always liked the Superdukes. Certainly from all I have read on the KTM forums the 990 engines have had a few minor defects but nothing serious. Looking at the bikes their build quality is excellent and the componentry is top notch. Love the WP suspension and the Brembos. Have you considered the SMT it is an awesome road bike with some off road capabilty. And current pricing is brilliant, currently you can buy an RC8 for 18K ride away and an SMT for around 18.5K.

As for the GSs well they are made by BMW and as you know the boxer motor is pretty good. Not sure about the 800 GS, very popular but hasn't got the boxer character.

Cheers, Haggis

Terms like "build quality" are hard to pin down and I have no idea how "differing roles of people/machines at a plant communicate in an effective manner".

If you talking about reliability, I'd rate KTM's in general lower than BMW and the 990Adv seems to be a thoroughbred that can give some owners serious headaches. I've thought about owning one several times as I don't think any other big bike is the the same league as a touring dirt bike, but there are just too many scary stories about serious problems for me to take the leap. BMW has been building Adv's a long time now and they're sorted. But, like most BMW's, they occasionally will bite you in the ass.

Neither is up to the reliability of most Japanese machines. That's the main reason I have a Super Tenere on order.

- Mark

Jon... FWIW, I've owned three GS's and three KTM ADV bikes the past ten years. Except for a clutch on the 1150GS, and a 12GS tail light assembly that couldn't handle a rough off road ride (repl under warranty and not a problem again) minimal issues with the bikes. Have found the KTM's to be very reliable (zero problems to date) with a fine build quality.

thanks guys

Mark - maybe I should have asked; who knows of someone working up the line doing this sort of stuff? what goes on behind those doors? Has a designer ever walked out because he/she didn't like what the big boss wanted, do engineers do whatever they want because they can baffle everyone into submission with their jargon, is there a fundamental process that all the marques follow, does it matter who the people are, is it all taken care of anyway due to the machines? does the personality of a plant alter the quality?

but aside

I've never spent much time looking at either bike in person and probably wouldn't know what I was looking for anyway, it's just when I look at 990adv and GS's for sale on-line I wonder about the price and why I would pay 5-8 more for the GSA. The talk about the trumpy 800 off roader build quality made me wonder

edit) it's good to hear about the KTM quality

The KTM would have a good mail payload and be quicker between boxes... if that's what you are wondering???:):):)

i read chewie's question and my first thought was: "I wonder how much trouble i can get in/cause by answering this?"

ah, what the hell.

preclaimer: never have worked for bmw, but have experience with european and japanese manufacturers.


what goes on behind those doors?
lots and lots of meetings. they even meet to talk about what they're going to talk about next time they talk. average bike takes over three years from green light to dealership floor. sometimes longer. depends a lot on existing molds, jigs, economy, etc.

Has a designer ever walked out because he/she didn't like what the big boss wanted?
yes. the "big boss"is usually a group of people, not an individual. if someone on the team doesn't see it their way and fights for something that isn't part of the concept, they usually get shifted to a different product (we call it demotion, some call it "adjustment").

do engineers do whatever they want because they can baffle everyone into submission with their jargon?
nope. not even close. they're given particular parameters to work within. any widget they come up with is explained and either adopted or discarded. they're not gods and they have been sacrificed.

is there a fundamental process that all the marques follow?
basically, yes. teams are formed for each bike, varying groups come together on each project, and not always the same combination of people.
in some cases (like electric cruisers, sport bike and atvs) there is a "proof of concept" step. POC bikes are usually pretty ugly and don't work well, but they "prove" you can do it. some projects get to the POC level and then are shelved for later. (example: most japanese companies have all the electric bikes and traction control/suspension adjustments, plus lots more, sitting on the shelf, finished, waiting for either the technology to catch up (batteries for electric bikes) or for the economy to catch up (new electro features).

after a POC bike comes my favorite part: prototypes! they're cobby, they're always disguised (black is the preferred color) and if they're street machines, were often ridden only at night. some have sand cast engines, logos from other brands on the fuel tank, a seat from somewhere else, etc. they're well disguised and an absolute blast to play with.

after prototypes are heavily mugged and man-handled we move on to pre-production bikes, which mostly/sorta simulate what a production bike would be like coming off the line. they're hand built and very close to final. more testing and fine tuning is done on these bikes.

the final state is pre-production bikes. they usually knock out about fifty of those, and sprinkle them around europe and the usa. they get pounded pretty hard in a effort to break them. pre-pros are the last chance for input, otherwise, they're gonna make a zillion of 'em just like the one you're riding.

so...if something little like a horn bracket breaks, then it will probably break on thousands of them. pre-pros get pounded hard because you're trying your best to break it, partially through very aggressive riding, and partly through planned abuse. it's a two step process: you ride it like you stole it, and then ride it like you don't know how.

does it matter who the people are?
oh absolutely! they're all very, very unique and each one is incredibly important!
they are, however, all replaceable. and they know it.

is it all taken care of anyway due to the machines?
the machines will only spit out what you tell them to make, right or wrong.

does the personality of a plant alter the quality?
yes, but not as much as the teams working on an individual project. each plant has their own culture and way of working, even though the results from them all is almost identical. the internal teams make the biggest difference. they're willing to fight for the project and stand behind their suggestions. sometimes they win, sometimes not, but as long as they still have a passion, they've usually still got a job.

Chewie;

I have had KTM dirt bikes for 12 years now and am very impressed with the built quality and durability.
When I look at the KTM models I see the same build philosophy throughout the range. Well engineered, limited fasteners and very few different bolt sizes.
Go look at a Yamaha.......I'm sure they are well engineered also, but compare how many things are bolted on a Yamaha.
Case in point is comparing the front number plate on my KTM to my friends Yamaha. The KTM plate comes off by undoing 2 rubber bands. My friends WR450 has a total of 9 bolts holding his number plate on. Why???

Cheers

drop~

you'll see that kind of ingenuity throughout the whole ktm range.
another thing you might notice: a 10mm bolt head or nut is actually 10mm, not "close to 10mm". same with the allen head bolts. nice, snug fit. and the bolts don't stretch as much.

the quality and creativity of the KTM fasteners and they way they're utilized on a KTM is superior to most japanese. with the japanese it sometimes seems like "here's the component, you guys figure how to bolt it on". with companies like ktm, the guys designing the component are also paying attention to where it goes and how it goes on.

thus, your two rubber bands, verses their 9 bolts.
speaking of...ktm folks sure seem to like buying "spare" rubber bands, expecting the originals to break. they don't break often., but the ktm owners have toolbox spares that eventually get thrown out after a couple of years.

Thanks. Well written and very informative.

Agree on the fasteners thing. Another great idea is, lets says bolt is hex 10mm, there is also a torx in the center so you have two ways of removing or tightening. I carry all the tools I need in a small pack....and that includes; tools,extra bolts,shift lever,a cable, plug and tire repair. This is my first KTM 300xc 2011 and I love it! I came off of a well built bike; GasGas but I like the KTM better.

Lane

If you go to your Yamaha dealer, please walk out back and take a look at the service department.

It's there because their shizit breaks, too.


Here's a partial list...

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/motorcycle_recalls/01/yamaha/index.html

Oh no!!! You can`t question him like that.

Interesting that you should ask that question. The KTM and the BMW GS were the competing bike for the making of "The Long Way Around." Although it's oilhead technology, a review of why they chose the beemers for the trip versus the KTM would be a start primer. I would suppose that the ultimate choice would be driven by what the predominante use for the bike would be. The Austrians do build a very nice bike; bu, you really have to like orange.;)

After six BMWs and two KTMs, I'd have to say there is very little difference in the build quality. I'd have to agree with everything said about the fasteners, suspension, etc. Unlike most BMWs, the KTM comes ready to rock as far as the suspension goes. You don't really need to do much in the upgrade department other than replace that heavy hot exhaust and when you do, there's a factory map that many dealers will do for nothing...no digging the FI chip out with a razor blade, etc. like I had to do on the S when I chipped my Laser.

Overall, I'd buy another KTM as well as another BMW...and it's really nice not seeing tons of Adventures everywhere, but when you do, they are usually very very dirty (I've yet to see a clean one at Starbucks)...20,000+ rough, mostly dirt, miles and still going strong.

hold on there nail. who told you that?

the production crew of LWA did choose what bike they wanted: they chose the KTM.
i looked at the initial sponsor proposal that charlie sent out. it had an image of a ktm on it.

KTM eventually told them no. they had absolutely no faith in the two riders, or their support crew and didn't want to be embarrassed by a couple of flailing buffoons. (didn't they cover that in the series? can't remember).

i believe bmw gave them product (bikes, spares and some gear) plus a 24/7 tech guy phone tree.
but that didn't happen until the ktm guys said no.

Sorry, I must have gone to the ice chest for a beer.:D I do remember the free part about the beemer. Do you think BMW made them edit the film to make it sound like they wanted the beemer? Conspiracy Theory:rolleyes:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eX5O-ZlWe9g" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

seems like this was part of the film?

Goes to show you, the bottom line is always in $$'s in the real world.:D I don't remember seeing that in the public TV version.