R1100S Clutch Spline Technical Advice

[Geoff Anstey]

Hi,
I know that there has been plenty of posts about the failure of the Clutch splines for R1100S and have spent the last few hours trawling through them to try and a solution to the two recent failures that I have experienced.

I purchased a 2003 R1100S BCR second hand and shortly after the clutch spline failed. The bike had 13,000km on the clock, at this stage I became aware of this being a known failure (through this forum) and took the advice of the BMW dealer of replacing both shaft and spline. At the time I ask about what may cause the failure and tolerances/ things I should be checking for when re-assembly, the answer were vague and was told that it was a uncommon failure.

So I replaced the shaft, lubed the splines reassembled and then also questioned why the shaft did not seem to use the full lenght of the spline avialable on the shaft and clutch spline. This I was told was normal.

So 24 months down the track I experienced similar symptoms, due to work load and study I parked the bike for the next two months. Eventually got around to pulling it down to find the same failure, this time the bike had only 4,000km since replacement. (bike has 17,000km and will soon be onto its third clutch and input shaft) Anyway since the parts are past the 24 month warrenty BMW Australia will not replace, but are happy to charge me a extra $200 on top of the price from two years prevoius due to their price rises.

I have two other boxer bikes with 90,000km and 18,000km that have done the tour down under with no driveline failures and would therefore dispute my riding style as the cause.

When I questioned BMW Motorad Australia on tolerances that I should checked, none were/are avialable. I was informed that I should follow the service manual, however the CD copy that I have does not cover re-assembly tolerances when re-fitting the gearbox to the engine housing. Tolerances for the re-assembly of the gearbox internals but no checks for the box to engine. The experince of a mechanic and checks would therefore be subjective if there are no published data on this.


Would anyone have tolerances that could be checked.....?





Are there any users out there who may have fitted the after market Wunderlich Sintered Clutch?

I have been told these are like a ON/OFF switch which I could live with if I though the inner spline was not going to fail. The price is ~ 4 time that of an OEM but I would be happy if I though I could get 30,000km out of a clutch whithout the spline failing and taking with it the input shaft.

The failure that I have had seems identical to other photos in this forum however as can be seen the 4,000km new clutch may have had a misalignment problem with only wear on the outside edge.

If we could keep this post to solutions that would be appreciated.

Where to get low cost quality parts, alternative parts or mods to prevent this from happening.

Tolerances and checks, manuals or even techical drawings with measurements (dream on).
Advice with a sound basis would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[jduke]

Geoff, sorry to hear about your problems, twice....
I think this adds even more fuel to the theory that it's not the parts so much as it's the assembly of the parts. Someone on this list put out that theory and I'm sure more will comment.
Doesn't help your problem though. Sorry.

[wswartzwel]

Alignment issues are probably the cause. I am referring to the centerline of the transmission shaft alignment, with the centerline of the engine crankshaft. Since there are dowel pins which hold things in place you really cant do much. A good machinist should be able to take some measurements off the cases, and shafts of both engine, and transmission to determine if the mating surfaces need corrective milling, or replacement.

[Mark Estes]

A fellow on another board was having the same multiple failures on an RT and it was determined that the engine and transmission were not in alignment. He ended up with a new transmission (and possibly the engine, too) and has had no further problems so far after many thousands of miles.

[markjenn]

You've done a great job describing the problem and it sounds like you've been very thorough in your analysis.

I would bet that you have some tolerance issue which results in mis-alignment in parts you haven't replaced. I've never done the repair, but I would assume that would be something in the tranmission or clutch housing assemblies that is mis-cast or mis-machined. Do you have any difficulty to in fitting the thing up. Does anything have to be forced?

Good luck. If you can't get enough information to pin down what the problem is, I don't think I'd roll the dice again. My temptation would be fix it, reassenble it, and trade it in. Life's too short.

- Mark

[Geoff Anstey]

No,
It seems to fit like like a glove, the alignment pins and holes seem to be OK. When I replaced the shaft the first time arounds I checked all tolerances as per manual but this does not check the shafts trueness to mating surfaces.

[roger albert]

I'm still with Mark and Bill's input.

I'd add crank runout and input shaft runout to the suspects, but believe strongly it's a collective alignment issue. Will require some CAREFUL work by a machinist to locate, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the two shafts are Not in good alignment. Just can't say which shaft, or which casting is responsible.

You've started some good detective work, but will need to enlist a machinst and do some more.

With this failure rate, even as an avid non-whiner, I'd really make noise with the dealer and/or importer down there. This in not coincidence, and not likely and owner-issue.

good luck.

[AntonLargiader]

You Australians are a crafty lot so I'm sure you'll be able to manage this.

Remove the entire clutch pack, leaving the flywheel (clutch carrier, whichever you prefer) in place. With a dial indicator mounted at one of the tranny bolt holes, measure the depth (below the tranny mounting face) of each of the three clutch mounting ears. Each ear has two bolt holes if it's like I remember. You're trying to see how much variation there is among the six mounting locations. Keep in mind that there is some axial play in the crank, so you need to push the crank forward (or pull it back) the same way for each measurement.

Then put bolts into the holes and measure the radial difference between the six bolt heads.

Then let us know what you find.

[Flatbutt1]

could alignment of the discs in the clutch pack have something to do with this? I remember Bill really fretting over that alignment while re-building mine.

[Moybin]

I think to definitively identify the root cause will require a properly aligned engine-transmission to compare measurements against the offending set. My own guess is the Getrag tranny has incorrectly drilled dowel pins for aligning to the engine case.

[wswartzwel]

Originally Posted by Flatbutt1

could alignment of the discs in the clutch pack have something to do with this? I remember Bill really fretting over that alignment while re-building mine.

That's cause you were looking over my shoulder.... I had to create the appearance that I really cared about the quality of the work Tom...

[PFFOG]

Originally Posted by wswartzwel

That's cause you were looking over my shoulder.... I had to create the appearance that I really cared about the quality of the work Tom...

Oldest trick in a mechanics book, If you can't dazzle them with facts, Baffle them with bull$hip!

[Geoff Anstey]

Thanks Anton,
I was looking at doing something similar, the problem is the pressure plate mounting surface is not a machine finish but should give me an indication as to the crank being square to the engine housing surface.
The gear box I was thinking about removing the dowls, placing surface on a mark-up table and running a feeler gauge around the edges to check the mounting surface of the box. Then trying to get a PCD from the input shaft to the centre of the dowl holes. Looking at doing something similar to the engine/crank to dowl holes, but this is going to need a jig mounted to the crank/fly wheel mounting point for the pressure plate. Then if PCD are OK when mounting box to engine running a feeler gauge around the mating surfaces before torquing bolts.

[AntonLargiader]

Don't get hung up on potential machining misalignment. It's possible, and you might as well check it if you can, but I've never found any and I've looked on a bunch of bikes. What I was trying to describe was rotating the crank (I didn't describe this well at all) and measuring from a fixed spot on the case to each mounting hole, looking for a wobble in the clutch housing. Not really looking for the crank to be square to the surface. Just simple runout measurements for the clutch housing. It's not a machined surface but it's plenty accurate enough to measure to. I would look for variation < 0.10mm.

I guess if you really wanted to check the crank-to-bellhousing alignment, you could take a sheet of glass (I think lucite or something would work if thick enough) and make a cover for the rear of the motor. Mount the dial indicator on the edge of the carrier so the tip sticks outward, bolt the clear cover on and watch the dial as you spin the motor...

To check crank axis to tranny input bearing bore coaxiality (mmm, early morning 1-cuppa coffee words there) I made an arbor with three bolt holes like the one described in the eternally long thread over at BMWST. Keep in mind, the crank main journal float will complicate those measurements. Never found anything significant, but I still check it. I found that the arbor isn't accurate enough to leave in one place, so I need to rotate the crank and measure from the same spot on the arbor out to the bearing bore. I use small-bore gauges for that.

[850dunstall]

over on bmwsport touring a guy had several fail as well, and mad a jig to check for alignment, this is a manufacturing problem. and the alignment pins are not located correctly from what i could gleam in his report.

by rights BMW needs to replace your gearbox. how to prove its a manufacturing error is going to be tough. i'm guessing that the factory warranty is long over so you are footing the bill for this.


just dropping in a better clutch wouldn't do a thing until you can establish that the engine crank and gearbox input shaft are aligned.

i will try and hunt to see if i can find that original thread over on bmwst


okay found this:

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB1&Number=596643&Searchpage=1&Main=595866&Words=engine+transmission+alignment+mbohn&topic=&Search=true#Post596643

look for the reply posted by mbohn, and i think there is another guy who also did a similar check

[Peter Parts]

Anton's initiative about measuring makes good sense, as he does always. Perhaps the place to start is by carefully eyeballing the wear pattern. And if there's no obvious pattern, maybe that's a clue too. Might provide hints about where to start measuring.

I wish I knew more about modern factory methods. You'd think you could conceptualize a hierarchy of goofs based on likelihood based on machine-tool or CNC set-up methods. Or maybe, rules like "first suspect things held together with rivets, then...."

Lots of art in wrenching.

[AntonLargiader]

I just took a closer look at the clutch disk. Looks like they replaced only the disk last time. Do me a favor, take a good look at the surfaces of the pressure plates and look at the hot spot pattern. See if it's symmetric. Better yet, post a photo! Do you know how they were aligned before? You might see a blue mark on one plate at 9:00 and on the other plate at 3:00. Wouldn't surprise me.

[jduke]

Help us learn here Anton. If it is blued at 9 and 3, what does that tell you?

[zimm]

My buddies '04 R1150R with 9,000 just lost the clutch splines last week and it looks exactly like the pictures above. It's at Adventure BMW in VA beach undergoing a $2,000 repair. Is there anything he can do with BMW to recover some of the repair costs?

[Flatbutt1]

Originally Posted by zimm

My buddies '04 R1150R with 9,000 just lost the clutch splines last week and it looks exactly like the pictures above. It's at Adventure BMW in VA beach undergoing a $2,000 repair. Is there anything he can do with BMW to recover some of the repair costs?

if it isn't under warranty the best he can hope for is a goodwill repair. But from past experience I think hes out o' luck.