Who knows about the Bosch Motronic MA 2.4 on the R1100S?

Ssssusan · 03-22-2002, 10:02 AM

I need your help to evaluate. I suspect my motronic brain is bad/faulty/programmed wrong/whatever! How do I confirm this?
Let me clarify: my motronic does not report faults which makes everyone [except me] think that the motronic system is working correctly and not an issue with my bike.

As I understand, the motronic system controls the fuel mixture/ignition timing/and whatever else? Right? Logic steers the rest of my argument.

Your techy evaluation/opinion would be much appreciated to help me figure how to proceed!

After 3 top end rebuilds [yes, you read that right!] (see below) to try to correct my engine problems, there is only one thing that has not been addressed/changed and that is the motronic system. How can I find out if this part is bad? Who can help me find this out? My dealer says put it on a dyno and check the read out -- he doesn't have a dyno. And, I would figure that I would need two motronics for the dyno to mean anything to me. -- my original motronic - get its reading, then swap dynos -- and take reading again. My dealer didn't provide the acceptable number the dyno should report. Argh!
___________________________
3 top end rebuild & four sets of burned out header pipes [lean running? improper fuel/air mixture?]

Facts & symptoms: Oil in air box. Carbon spewing from exhaust - enough to splatter on license plate. Low gas mileage. Bike running crappy for a long time; not great improvement after valve adj & throttle body sync. In Dec. 2001 Leak down test showed 38% blow by on left; 28% blow by on right.

Found upon Examination by service dealer:
Ring gaps on left aligned
Both rt & lft cylinder chambers scored down through the cylinder [from what? carbon?]
Remedy: Rings & cylinders replaced.
First impression upon pick-up: [I brought the bike home last night after 2 1/2 months in shop] - bike still does not idle correctly or at the proper rpm. At start up on 69-degree day, the mid-position on choke doesn't keep bike running. And after warmed up 35-40 miles, bike is idling at under 1K rpm.

Other important facts: 3rd rebuild bike had 36K miles since 2nd rebuild same time last year.
4th set of header pipes replaced & turned crappy [left side down to the cat within 2K miles] just before 3rd rebuild.
3rd set of header pipes burned out to the point they split [second rebuild]
Shop found on 2nd rebuild that valves were pitted & cut wrong from 1st rebuild.
1st rebuild was done at 26K miles after continuous complaints [to dealer I bought bike from] of endless oil consumption, running performance - progressively getting worse, poor gas mileage and burned out header pipes [lean fuel mix?]

Thanks for any thoughts [unloading the bike is not an option at this time] would be appreciated.

Rapt · 03-22-2002, 10:30 AM

Whoa!!! Thats some run of bad luck. Unfortunately BMW is pretty tight with details on the motronic.

My first step would be to get a new dealer who knows what they're doing as these guys obviously don't.... Case in point, improper set-up of idle, screwed up rebuild/valves.

Other details, due to the design of our bikes they produce a lot of carbon. With the stock exhaust/cat I had carbon on my plate too, but the bike ran fine. The lever is simply a throttle advance not a choke and it should provide GOOD effect, obviously your dealer has set it up wrong... Something to note is that sometimes that cable or the housing gets snagged and will make it seem like its on more than it should be. That may have happened to yours when the dealer was adjusting it. They should have checked it though.

A LITTLE oil in the airbox is not necessarily unusual. I usually drain out about a tablespoon every couple thousand miles... If it been over filled it will be significantly more than that, also if the blowby is too high it may cause more oil in your airbox. Make sure that the middle of the sight glass is your target when filling/checking the oil since its very easy to get false low readings. The middle leaves some leeway there.

The pipes discolour almost immediately, but that doesn't necessarily mean bad mixture its just how they are... However the splitting is NOT a good thing.

I'd be leary based on the past performance of this shop to let them inside any engine especially one that wasn't running so well. They've screwed up your rebuilds in the past why would they get it right this time? Seems to me that a decent dealer should be able to tell even without a dyno that something is wrong with the set-up if there is something wrong with it. Didn't they drive your bike after the "fix" to make sure it was running properly? The idle doesn't sound right to me, spec is 1100 rpm (if I recall correctly), and my bike tends to idle higher when warmed up, not lower.

Consider contacting BMW directly, tell them your concerns and how some of the repairs are the fault of shoddy work on the part of the dealer and that you'd like another shop to check out the work.

Finally it shouldn't be THAT hard to find a Motronic to swap out with and check thats everything is kosher. You don't need a dyno if its running that poorly, just a test drive. Perhaps even BMW would be able to help with that, I'd think that this should fall under the "lemon law" type consideration with all that shop time...

roger albert · 03-22-2002, 10:46 AM

Hi Susan,

Sorry to hear of all the crap you're dealing with.

My first thought is to second rapt's advice. Get a different dealer.

My 2nd thought is that not a single thing you mentioned seems motronic related. Can't be sure, because as rapt said, BMW is pretty tight with the specifics, but, given general ecu knowledge, none of this sounds like motronic at all.

Sure, it COULD be (too much fuel all the time washing lube of the cylinder walls, or too little making it hot and lean - but, you have conflicting symptoms there already, plus, the motronics have pretty decent self diagnosis from what I've gleaned from dealers.

> Oil in air box. Carbon spewing from exhaust - enough to splatter on license plate.

Pretty normal

> Low gas mileage. Bike running crappy for a long time.

Pretty normal, given the below leakdown numbers. Personally, I find 10% bad and 15% atrocious, so, you're lucky it only ran crappy.

>Leak down test showed 38% blow by on left; 28% blow by on right.

Youch!

> Ring gaps on left aligned Both rt & lft cylinder chambers scored down through the cylinder [from what? carbon?]

So, that tells you the 2nd rebuild was bad.

> Shop found on 2nd rebuild that valves were pitted & cut wrong from 1st rebuild.

So, that tells you the 1st rebuild was bad.

I don't see any trend to suggest a bad motronic, at all, just a string of bad mechanical service.

I don't mean to beat up your theory, but it strikes me very strongly as barking up the wrong tree.

Also, a dyno isn't really a good diagnostic tool for something of this sort. Sure, if the Motronic was somehow faulting in an analog manner, the dyno would show a performance difference, but that's not generally how they fail.

How's fuel pressure?
How's oil pressure?
How's big end axial play?
How's small end left/right deflection?

Anyway, please get thee to a good mech. I think it's FAR more likely to help you than another motronic.

hth
regards
roger

buckeyeRS · 03-22-2002, 11:05 AM

I know that this will begin to sound repetative, but I'm with Rapt and Roger.
I get carbon on my plate. It is deposited there during warm-up while the left muffler is busy ridding itself of watervapor.
As for the other symptoms, it sounds like it is a chain reaction stemming from the 1st rebuild. Take Roger and Rapt's advice and get the bike to a good dealer. This style of engine has been around too long and the data bank is too big to have a problem like this go on and on.

Good luck!
-john

levert · 03-22-2002, 11:38 AM

Ditto what is said, find a new dealer and mechanic.
Semi related, I brought one of my dirt bike barrels in with a simple job to have a helicoil put in on a stripped head bolt. THIS was a machine shop I have always used, little did I know the main driving force in the company had left> You know where this is going.
Well, they drilled down so far that they penetrated one of the cooling passages, a total hack job and wrecked a $1000 part. A simple moron would look at part and go 1in depth, don't drill1 1/2in.
They would not replace part and offered to patch with weldbond!!!! Basicly I got screwed.
Now when I need machining or mechanical labour I go inside and look around and talk to people who where there recently.
Good service is relly hard to find nowadays, I won't even go into the local nissan dealer who drove my car into a pole and wrecked my radio??and the part that they where to fix was still broken when I arrived to look at my poor car.

CarlosT · 03-22-2002, 11:58 AM

There could be something wrong with the oiling system.

Or could a bird be ingested into the intake causing a major plugging up of the intake. Sussan any foul odors emanating from the air horn?

Or the fuel pump cutting out at high RPMs.

Carlos

I was kinda kidding about the second cause but hey it could happen.

Ssssusan · 03-22-2002, 02:22 PM

Wow! Thanks for so many posts so quickly I do REALLY APPRECIATE all the thought that goes into your replies!

Sorry, a little more important info:
Only the shop I bought my bike at did all the service the first year - including putting off the rebuild and then the lousy first rebuild (BMW warranty) - oh, the mechanic also replaced the header pipes and coated them inside with porcelain which burned off with the rest of the finish on the new pipes.

I then got BMW involved and pushed for correction. At this point,
I took bike to a different BMW Authorized shop. (BMW dumped all the crap & trying to deal with the tempermental Service Rep into their lap and expected them to deal with fixing the bike and placating me) They evaluated first rebuild & performed the second rebuild.

Just before returning my bike they found a break in the center/sub frame near the clutch housing (muscle mechanics from the first shop I suspect). I asked BMW for a new bike. They refused and convinced me they would take care of making my bike like new. (BMW warranty)

After second rebuild I recorded in service notes observations of problems I've already told you about and within the year the second shop has now rebuilt it again. BMW refused to honor their 12 mo New Parts warranty & my dealer submitted claim to my extended warranty co where it was paid.

Rapt, didn't tell you also that my cables have shredded and been replaced at the very least 4 times. Hope not to imagine they are still a problem.

Also, the oil fill thing -- I have been all through that drill of how much to fill and the empty oil sight glass -- you name it, the works. I have even had my oil sensor light replaced because it came on one time and stayed on until I put several more ounces of oil in to satisfy it. (a very odd occurence in itself)

And, to speak to the pipes discolour - it is not just the change in color/ blue or gold and what I know as "normal" It is that they burn through to a rusty, pitted condition. And on my current set, the pitting happened after only 2K miles & the gold color extends clear to my cat on only the left side. A symptom of >>>>What?... "However the splitting is NOT a good thing." Right-O.

Roger, If not the central motronic brain, perhaps one of its subsystems? I tried to attached a file called "Overview of the BMW Motronic Engine Management System" but my file type is too large for Pelican's liking. if anyone wants to read it, I can send it in.pdf (145 KB) format or you can read it on the site I got it from http://www.adventurebmw.com/motronic.html. My interpretation of the info supports my suspicion.

Carlos, no bird but perhaps the fuel pump cutting out at high temperatures? -- Now there is a thought to explore. In the last six months the whirling sound of the fuel pump has become loud enough that I've inquired of my dealer about its livelyhood.

Also, FYI, my bike has 71,720 MILES on the odo. BMW is trying to use the wear-n-tear excuse all the while ignoring the rebuilds.
Funny how BMW uses high mileage to sell their bikes and the same to devalue them when it is conveniently to their advantage.

Keep on talking to me. Together perhaps something will come to light.

CarlosT · 03-22-2002, 02:42 PM

I just brought up the fuel pump because a lean condition at the wrong time (high RPM/hot) could really damage the bike. How do the plugs look after let's say 2,000/3,000 miles? The pipes issue tells me that you're running real hot for some reason. The oil residue could mean anything including overfilling but a plugged or pinched oil line could aggravate the temperature problem. I'm with Roger, I doubt that the Motronic would do this. You could aways swap this or throw on some Bings

CarlosT · 03-22-2002, 02:45 PM

Maybe you should consider taking the bike to a real good dealer with serious wrenches on staff. Hermy's in Reading PA and Bob's in Jessup, MD come to mind.
http://www.hermys.com/bmw/
http://www.bmwbobs.com/

I'm not familiar with BMW dealers in NJ or NY.

Carlos

Mrmerlin · 03-23-2002, 05:12 AM

Hi Sue it sounds like you really ride that machine of yours,and yes it has a lot of miles......
A few things, I was wondering what kind of exhaust system you have, IE is it stock? do you still have the cat on it?
I was wondering how many cycles of wet and dry the bike sees while riding it , what kind of environment you ride in and who is responsible for preventive mantenence?
How long between oil changes and what kinds of oil are you using ,what mantenence schedule are you following?
I would suggest that you migh have a plugged up cat,and that it would be a good idea to replace the exhaust system with a Staintune, if you havnt already.
I had an S and my friend did as well, his pipes were gold blue all the way back to the cat, and mine were just blue for the first 12 inches or so, we did similar riding and it shure looked to me like his bike was running way hotter than mine altho they both seem to run OK.So if the cat is plugged it will run hotter, if there is a problem with your motronics then it might be a good idea to swap with someone, I would also look into replacing the O2 sensor if that has not been done and see what color the cat code plug is, and possibly replace it
As far as you shredding cables, it would seem to me that if youre doing a lot of riding then you should be doing a little more preventive mantenence I.E. oiling the cables and pivot points I.E. levers and such, it sounds like the Squeeky wheel is not seeing its share of oil..Unless there is some way that the cables are being bound up or bent....................Still thinking........Stan

CarlosT · 03-23-2002, 05:59 AM

Talking about shredding cables, the S has the worst throtle actuation the whole thing suckss the pull cable, the bowden box. Give me fly-by-wire or something.

My throtle was very hard and I tried everything Throtlerocker, Bob's Wristrest all that and my still right wrist was on the verge of CTS. I was even accused by Slo-Joe of being a girly man

It turns out that there's a plastic piece right under the handgrip through which the throtle cables glide at almost a right angle. Well mine weren't gliding so well and they were cutting into the plastic piece. The groove was deep and tight enough that the throtle was very hard to pull. This was handled under warranty at my 12,000-mile service.

Don Ro · 03-23-2002, 09:20 AM

Hi Susan,

Sorry to hear about the constipated mess. I am with you in spirit if not in tech support. Are you sure this is the correct address? My system says... "Cannot find page."

http://www.adventurebmw.com/motronic.html.

Best of luck with this issue...and keep us posted.

Regards,

Don
'99 R11S

ErricZ · 03-23-2002, 09:48 AM

Where in NJ are you? I can understand if you don't want to reveal the name of the dealer, but I'd like to know. There are only 3 or 4 here. In North Jersey you have a new one on Rt 46 in Ledgewood, Touch of Class by Philipsburg (they moved close-by their old location) and in Central Jersey we have Cross Country BMW. As far as south of there I don't know any other BMW dealers.

Very sorry about your problems, I wish I could help with any advice, but I think that you might want to check out a different dealer.

CarlosT · 03-23-2002, 03:37 PM

Don Ro:
That was a bad link, dude.

Ssssusan · 03-23-2002, 03:40 PM

Don, -- going back to try to open the adventurebmw web site yesterday, I got the same message as you so here, I've re-typed the first several paragraphs of the document on BMW Motronic Engine Management System:

"Motronic System Overview: Motronic combines all the electronic systems for engine control in a single control unit which, in turn, governs the actuating systems used to control the spark-ignition engine. Engine mounted monitoring devices (sensors) gather the required operating data and relay the information to input circuits for: ignition, camshaft position, battery voltage, intake air temperature, air quantity, throttle valve angle, lambda oxygen sensor as well as engine speed.

Input circuits located within the engine control unit convert these data for subsequent operations in the microprocessor. The microprocessor, in turn, uses these data to determine the engine’s momentary operating conditions; this information serves as the basis for the engine control unit’s command signals, which are amplified by power-output stages before being transmitted to the final control elements used to control the engine. This system combines fuel injection, highest-quality mixture preparation and the correct ignition timing to provide mutual support over the entire range of operating conditions encountered in the engine.

Motronic consists of a number of subsystems. By operating together as the two basic elements within a single system, ignition and fuel-injection acquire a flexibility and operational scope exceeding that provided by the corresponding systems on their own. Motronic is characterized by numerous three-dimensional performance maps; there are no intrinsic programming restrictions, and the maps can be applied for a multiplicity of functions. Motronic’s basic specification includes additional subfunctions for meeting emissions requirements and achieving optimum fuel economy……”

Ssssusan · 03-23-2002, 04:30 PM

I continue to thank you all....
Stan, I have everything STOCK on the bike (even the canister!) Given the history of my problems, I didn't dare change anything cause *BMW is real quick to point the finger at after-market parts. The only thing I have ever done [on the advise from my shop] was change to a K&N air filter, which Richard Dampf our BMW Service Rep. flipped out about, confescated it, and replaced it with a BMW air filter! (I have only told you all about how my bike has been treated but you have no idea how "I" have been treated by him and the first dealer I went to).

I still have stock pipes (believe me, I'd LOVE Staintune and in fact even just had a 1 1/2 hour tour of the factory in Mitagong, Australia this February!).

My cat was replaced in Sept. of 2000 - I was told by the dealer it was bad. Interesting note here, my second set of header pipes were put on a couple hundred miles before it was decided that my cat was bad & changed. (the damage was already done) And just as interesting was when I asked to have the new cat checked this August (2001), Mr. Dampf told me "the cats never go bad" and dismissed my request. I have definitely seen a correlation between ****ty pipes and catalytic converters -- I clarify this by telling you that at the RA in NC this year I was checking pipes and the ones that looked "ok" were ones that no longer had the cat and at least 2 (both from WV) that looked like crap both still had the cat in place. I'll also say both bikes had several unattended to oil leaks too.

I bought my bike Sept. 99 and yes, I ride through the winter when the roads are safe (Polar Bear club). so the bike has been exposed to all the elements. I will tell you also that I wash my bike at the car wash in the winter to remove the salt & sand after a ride.

My oil is changed religiously every 3K miles. I have not missed any of the recommended services either. I never switched to synthetic (see *) I run 20/50 in the winter 10/40 in the summer. BMW oil of course (sick me!)

The cable shredding has every time been at the junction box, and not at the levers.

I've paid to have both my throttle bodies replaced. (Dampf would not warranty them) The left one was leaking air.

Carlos, the spark plugs have shown clean everytime I've checked and my shop(s) have never sited them as evidence of a problem. They too are changed as required. You mentioned "throwing on some Bings" what are Bings?

Erik, I bought my bike at Cross Country and had my first year of service there. Then I switched to Touch of Class. These shops have had my steady service except when I rode across country last spring and needed tires, oil change, or 6K services. I didn't dare have an unauthorized anyone touch it - again because of warranty.

I have visited Hermy's (a cool old time shop -- but I hear they're changing/expanding?) and Bob's and even Razee's in RI but have not have service done at these places.

So there is another ear/eye full of information. My parts list (replacement) is longer than you can imagine -- rear engine seal, rear wheel bearings; I'm on my third set of rear shocks (the others began leaking) and the second front (man can the S dive when the front shock goes). The transmission & clutch were replaced because CC ignored my concern about the " black stuff on the engine seam" (sign of the rear engine seal leak) and my clutch & trans got full of oil.

Are you all bored yet? Or perhaps a little frustrated? Maybe even a little angry? (sorry, no soap box)

I've asked BMW NA General Manager, Mr. Plucinsky for an appointment to discuss my bike; last time he ignored my request. I hope he doesn't this time.

Thanks again. I'll keep you posted.

Oh, I didn't tell you - BMW chose my cross-country trip report as one of the Grand Prize winners in the "Great Rides" contest. (I have verbal confirmation but nothing in writing it is supposed to be posted to the web site in the near future) (the prize if you don't know is a $5K Edelweiss Motorcycle tour)

brad black · 03-24-2002, 01:34 AM

sounds like every thing downstream of the mufflers is getting cooked. are the mufflers ok? not blocked? lambda sensor working as it should?

have you dyno'd it? should make 90 or dynojet std.

brad

JeffD · 03-24-2002, 06:47 AM

Susan, the BMW NA web site shows that you be the WINNER! Congrats sounds like you've earned it and may have payed for the trip in one way or the other. Jeff

doberman · 03-26-2002, 12:31 AM

I too, have had a lot of problems with carbon from the exhaust.
And I have had my share of "faulty dealers".
Anyway, I switched to the BBPower chip, that helped a lot, and finally my new dealer (not BMW) synchronized the injection, and that did the trick.

ErricZ · 03-26-2002, 02:29 PM

Grumble, grumble, Richard, grumble, ****** Dampf, grumble, grumble. This guy thinks he's a god and acts like it too. He supposedly answers to no one at BMW, or that's what some lacky at the customer service desk of BMWNA told me.

Sorry to hear about your problems, Susan. I was going to try Touch of Class out for a service of mine once because they would take me on short notice when my own dealer wouldn't at first.

Things seem to have changed over at Cross Country recently, definitely for the better. Every time I deal with Matt, Dino, Dan, Scott, and Lois I have no problems. I need to get my brandy new BT010s (front and rear, screw that different front tire crap!) put on and for me and was told to bring in the wheels anytime I wanted. (I'm cheap, I hate labor costs, what can I say?)