LarryP - Cam Results

[brad black]

how did the cam job end up? i don't recall seeing any report, and am mighty interested.

brad

[LarryP]

Super. Absolutely super. It now spins up lightning quick from 6K to the limiter. Sunday mornings have become very entertaining. And it makes enough power that I now use, when not trying for an amusing pace, fifth and, at least on I-95, even sixth. Honestly, fourth was a bit of a stretch before for most of my riding. So I can go a gear up and have the same power, or stay in the same gear and have more fun.

As I mentioned in the "accessories" thread, the big successes were the Dymags, the cams and the rearsets. The effect of these mods were somewhat mind-boggling, whereas the rest (chip, Staintune, Ohlins, InDuct, braided lines, shorter Paralever arm, K&N, etc.) were more incremental, if anything.

[carl tyrer]

Hey Larry

Thanks for the info you e-mailed me

Went to BB Power last weekend he installed the cams and lightweight valve gear for me, then dyno`d the bike before and after. results were a 6.5 hp improvement, now bike is 100.5hp at rear wheel.
I was impressed with the quality of the cams profiled from genuine BMW blanks.

the bike really flies now especially from 6000 rpm, 5th and 6th gear are a lot more flexible.

Carl T

[cliff randall]

Hi guys........Where did you get the cams?
Thanks,
Cliff

[LarryP]

I got mine (chip and cams) directly from Bernhard, rather than going through Wunderlich. His website is http://www.bbpower.de/ and his email is BBPower@t-online.de

I think the cams were something like $1,200 and the chip was $300 but don't hold me to that. I can check if anyone really cares.

By the way, on an un (or vaguely) related note, some of us have reported using stage five on the chip, whereas Berhard really recommends stage four for this application. His post to me was as follows:

Until today I don't have had a real stage 5 engine on my
test stand. I have made stage 5 blind to help people who have such an engine.
Now a friend has built up such an engine. We have 1200cc, Mahle
pistons compression 12.8 : 1 , cams with more stroke, lightened
rockers and cups and screws, valves 37/31, throttle bodies 52 mm
(org. 45 mm), big channels, conical header tubes 50 mm, race
exhaust system.
We hope to have it on the teststand during the next 2 weeks and
hope for 110 HP rear wheel. I will keep you informed.
The cams are not the real race types, because my friend like it
for street use. The race cams are not good for street use, of course it would give more peak power.

So who knows, maybe next year I'll just have to find some big pistons ...

[carl tyrer]

Brad and Larry

Saw the dyno of that bike when i was there he got 114hp at rear wheel, a lot of modifications but sure looked impressive, When he finishes the project i fancy a 120hp 1100s myself.

Carl T

[cliff randall]

Larry and or Carl........Could you please give me the cam specs, ( I don't see them listed on the site), that way I'll know if they will produce more power in my motor before I buy them.
Thanks,
Cliff

[LarryP]

I don't know what you mean by "specs" but if lift, duration, etc., then no; I am sure it is proprietary. The cams will increase power, I think the earlier post showed a 6.5 increase in bhp.

There are also bhp and torque curves on the bbPower website. note that they show no apparent decrease in midrange; I will confirm that that is exactly how the bike feels. I do not believe (from riding, not a dyno) anything was lost.

[cliff randall]

Larry.......They should offer the lift, open and close numbers etc., otherwise how would a motor builder know if the dame things will make power or even work with their existing motor.
I sent an e-mail to their offices requesting the info, once I get it I'll tell you exactly what the cams will do and where in the power curve.
Cheers,
Cliff

[brad black]

cliff. get used to being ignored. these guys will give you no info whatsoever. i have just ordered some schrick cams, which have the same specs as the msd ones from italy. bbp bernhard said he couldn't keep up with demand so was not interested in providing me with any info other than cost. his cams may be different, but i wouldn't be surprised if they were the same ones.

the only specs they give are 292/292/108, max lift at valve 11.3mm, lift @ tdc 3.3mm. what duration the 292 refers to is anyones guess. the 6.5 hp increase from the bbp is a bit less than i was expecting too.

their australian rep couldn't even get timing @ 1mm lift figures for me. and the special price i was promised evaporated as soon as i actually placed an order too.

can you imagine isky or crane or crower treating people this way? i will plot out the schrick cams when i get them to compare the profile to std. i might put it on the moto site just to piss them off.

sick of dealing with people who treat you like ****. and i supposedly have the advantage of being "in the trade".

now i might go have a little lie down.

brad

[LarryP]

It will be curious to see what you learn, both officially and nonofficially. Anyway, I would love to see your appraisals of whatever you determine the specs to be; that is quite beyond my ability. In that regard, is a 6 bhp improvement really less than should have been expected? I was assuming that a ca. 7% improvement just from cams was pretty good.

If the information is not proprietary, I would think Bernhard would give it up readily. I have emailed him with numerous questions before and he has always responded fairly quickly, answering whatever I asked.

[cliff randall]

Thanks Brad.......I'll work with what I can get.
Cheers,
Cliff

[brad black]

cliff

i should have the schricks next week. i'll let you know how the specs come out. i have the std ones in a nice spreadsheet with graphs, so i'll add the schricks to that.

the schrick guys have been saying 10 hp, but, as with the special price, i'm quite expecting that to be crap as well.

cynical as ever

brad

[cliff randall]

Thanks Brad........Here's somew info for all to enjoy.
The Heart Of The Matter

An engine is a giant air pump and the more efficiently the air moves through it the more power the engine makes. The camshaft opens and closes the valves allowing the air to enter and exit. Camshafts differ in design, but the two main factors are the amount of “duration” and “valve lift”. The “duration” is the time the valve is open (measured in degrees of crankshaft rotation).

Duration determines the “rpm potential” of the engine and power band. The longer the duration period the higher the RPM the powerband will operate at. The “lift” is the distance the valve opens (it is measured in thousandths of an inch of travel). The more lift the more air/fuel mixture can enter and exit the engine, thereby producing more torque.

Bigger’s Not Always Better

The camshaft provides an “rpm power band” that is approximately 3,000 rpm wide. This rpm power band can be produced in either the Lower Range (from off idle to 3,500 rpm), in the Mid Range (from 2,000 to 5,000 rpm) or in the High Range (3,500 to 6,500 rpm). Select the camshaft that will perform the best in the particular rpm band that the bike will be operating in.

The amount of valve lift that the engine can accept is often determined by valve to piston clearance, valve to valve clearance, and the amount of travel the valve spring can handle before its coils touch one another and bind up. Big lift camshafts could require modified cylinder heads or pistons and performance valve springs with additional travel.

Power vs Weight

The “horsepower to weight ratio” is very important. You must produce the right amount of power at the correct rpm range. A heavy bike normally needs a cam that will provide good lower rpm power (torque) to get the bike moving. Generally, a cam with less duration would work the best in a heavy bike. A lighter bike requires less low end power, therefore a cam that provides power in the higher rpm range would be better suited.

But of course there are always the exceptions. A rider with a heavy Dresser who rides the open highway might not care how long it takes for the bike to wind-up to speed. He likes to ride at 65 mph and wants to pass up to 90 mph! In this case, a cam with increased duration and rpm potential would work best.

Balancing Compression

Generally speaking, the greater the amount of “cylinder pressure” the more power the engine will have. This is determined by the engine’s compression ratio and the amount of duration the camshaft has. Cylinder pressure goes up with either an increase of compression ratio or a decrease in camshaft duration.

Cylinder pressure goes down with either the increase of camshaft duration or the decrease of compression ratio. An excessive increase in the camshaft duration could lower the cylinder pressure causing a loss of performance. In order to counteract this effect the compression ratio of the engine would need to be increased (by milling the heads or changing the pistons) to gain back the loss in cylinder pressure.

Stock compression ratio for early Panhead® and Shovelhead® engines was 7.0:-1 to 7.5:1. Later model Evolution® engines are around 8.5:1. Modified engines for street use can have 9.0:-1 up to 10.5:1 compression ratio depending on the circumstances. Racing applications use 11.0:1 and higher compression. Because the quality of the “pump gasoline” is decreasing, engines above 9.5:1 might need octane booster additives to avoid detonation and pinging.

Note: It is important to mention here that cylinder pressure is also affected by altitude. The higher the altitude the less atmospheric pressure. This makes it more difficult for the engine to produce power. At high altitude (above 3,500 ft.) with a stock compression ratio engine, a camshaft with less duration is recommended. If a longer duration cam is selected you must raise compression.

When Bigger Is Better

Larger cubic inch engines work better with cams with increased duration and lift. The increase in cubic inches demands an increase of airflow. In this case the longer duration cam would be recommended. (The engine will also work better with a larger carburetor, high-flow exhaust, and cylinder head improvements.)

Unlike the stock cubic inch engine that needs an increase of compression ratio with a larger duration camshaft, a large cubic inch engine will absorb the larger design cam without necessarily requiring an increase in compression. The larger cubic inch engine will also cause the larger duration camshaft to build max power at a lower rpm than is described in the catalog.

A Perfect Match

It is important to choose component parts that will work together and enhance performance. If the bike is going to remain stock with only minor changes, a mild duration cam with a free flowing air cleaner, filter and a jetting kit is all that may be necessary. At the other extreme, with aftermarket heads, a big carburetor and large diameter exhaust pipes, a longer duration cam with big lift would be required. Superchargers, turbos or nitrous oxide systems require special consideration a custom designed cam. Be sure that the accessories you purchase are compatible with one another to obtain the goals you desire.

There you have it cams 101. Now you can see why a quality supplier will always devulge the cam profile.

Cheers,
Cliff

[cliff randall]

Hi Guys.......The above info comes right from Crane's site, motorcycle section - wwwcranecams.com
Cheers,
Cliff