Hard start, magic smoke, what's the deal?

[squall_line]

I finally acquired and installed more body panel screws on my bike to eliminate the majority of the rattles that she had picked up over time. First, it galls me that service departments lose screws/bolts, and also that BMW stopped selling normal hex bolts for some of the panels, but I digress.

The bike was still making noise from the area of the alternator (I could feel a rattle against the alternator cover), so I decided to leave it behind for a long trip I had planned. I finally tore it down and checked the belt, and everything looked fine. I took the bike out for a ride, put gas in, and had a really hard time starting the engine. Press the starter and it clicks like the battery is dead, but then finally starts to turn over. ABS lights alternating, indicating that the battery is low.

I rode it straight home and checked the oil, since it was almost acting seized. I filled to spec and tore the alternator area down again. This time, I loosened the alternator, checked the belt and alternator pulley, re-tightened the belt and buttoned everything back up. I started the bike (hard start again, but not surprised) and rode it about 4 miles, then put it away.

Went to start the bike yesterday, would barely start. Hard click, then finally turning over. I left the bike at home and went to work. Plugged in my tender overnight and it went from below 80% to fully charged by the time I got up this morning.

This morning, same story. CLICK-craaaank, crrraaank, turn over and run. But this time, bonus magic smoke from under the front body panels somewhere, plus some extra smoke from the exhaust (bike parked on the center stand the whole time, so it can't be oil in the left jug). I left the bike at home again.

So, the bonus magic smoke leads me to believe I either cooked the starter, there's a bad oil leak somewhere, or I cooked off some insulation on wires that go to the starter.

Any thoughts as to what might be wrong with this before I start to tear her down again? Battery is an Odyssey, maybe 3 years old? Never had an issue before a few weeks ago, though I suspect the alternator belt has been clattering for most of the summer (without any indication of a charging issue).

[SergioK]

What'd the smoke smell like? There's a distinct difference between burning oil smoke and plastic insulation burning wire smoke.

[wswartzwel]

leaking Injector filling cylinder with gas perhaps?

[Droptarotter]

I would have a look for loose/burned connections. Does the 11S have relays? If so, they could be another culprit.
Battery could still be suspect also.

As for the smoke.........go here;
Lucas Replacement Smoke Kit

Cheers

[squall_line]

Originally Posted by wswartzwel

leaking Injector filling cylinder with gas perhaps?

This would jive with the acridity and overwhelming gas smell of the exhaust after starting. Not sure it would be leaking enough to cause a hydro-lock after only being shut off for 3 or 4 minutes while fueling, but anything is possible.

The overwhelming smell from the exhaust kept me from smelling the smoke from the front of the bike. The suddenness of the smoke in the front and the helmet I already had on kept me from smelling it, too.

Time for more digging...

[squall_line]

I put the key in this evening, and it cranked over with no hesitation at all. It started and ran just fine. The only thing I did different was take off the starter cover and the seat (although the seat was off in the past when it was still having issues, too).

After running the bike for about 30 seconds or so, I shut it off. I checked a few things for smoke, and then tried starting it again. It hesitated slightly, but still cranked and started. I let it run for another 30 seconds or so, looking around for obvious leaks and issues, and then shut it off.

I honestly have no idea what it's doing or what the deal is. I DO know that I absolutely reek of over-rich exhaust, even though I wasn't standing behind the bike at any point and the wind wasn't really blowing. I put the seat back on and came inside because I'm really just at a loss. I'll try to crank it in the morning and see what it does after sitting in the cold overnight, but I don't plan on actually trying to ride it yet, until I can get a better idea of whether or not it will strand me somewhere.

[squall_line]

I finally removed the battery and took it in to Batteries+. They tested it and told me it was dead and needed to be replaced (allegedly only 67 CCA left).

The battery is 3 years old, they don't carry them in stock, so what the hell, I'll buy another one off of Amazon, even though I'm pretty sure they're lying to me.

Installed the new battery after I waited for all of my replacement bolts and washers to arrive at the dealer (thanks to either the previous owner or the shop for losing half of the bolts for the fuel tank and air intake the last time they worked on it), tried it out, and it still has a hard time turning over.

Frustrated, I waited a week and tried again today. The first push of the button, I got a little bit of a turnover but not much. Next push, I might as well have not had a battery. Third push, it turned over slowly and finally lit off.

I figure, "maybe a brand new battery isn't charged when it's shipped", so I attempted to plug it in. After fighting with my "WR" rated outlet outside (whoever came up with the design for "Tamper Resistant" [aka, Adult Proof] outlets should be dragged behind a horse on a gravel path, tied by a length of extension cord), I finally have my Battery Tender plugged in, and the lights on it tell me that the battery was at least at 80% when I plugged it in.

So, any thoughts from anyone? Is there a ground to the starter that can go bad? A starter relay that can go bad somewhere? The fuel pump sounds fine, the lights look just fine, the clock keeps time, but the starter or battery or something just doesn't seem to want to do its job.

[wswartzwel]

There is a ground wire that mounts to the frame under the battery box that has been known to corrode… I think it is just for the harness though.. there should be a larger diameter ground wire too.. follow the cables and see where they go. What brand battery are you buying off the web?

[brentw1]

starter motor or cables,

[brentw1]

measure the voltage at the battery and starter while cranking should be close.
if it is close and over 8-9 volts probably the starter.

[JimMoore]

The negative battery cable goes to a spot under the ABS box and is a huge PITA to reach (thanks BMW!). You can try buying a battery cable at the auto parts store and grounding the battery somewhere else.

In fact, you can check the ground pretty easily. Connect your voltmeter to the positive and negative battery terminals and crank the starter. Note the voltage drop. Now connect the negative voltmeter wire to something on the frame and crank the starter. If the voltages are radically different you have a bad ground.

[Roger 04 RT]

From the symptoms you've listed, it is likely that the starter has either: a) had a magnet come loose inside and jam the armature; or b) the planetary gear cover has fallen onto the armature, jamming it. Pull the starter, remove its nose section and look around.

I would suggest that you not try starting the bike again until you inspect the starter. The smoke is probably coming from inside the starter.

[terrym]

Agree with Brent and Roger. I had similar symptoms recently and found the planetary gear cover in the starter had come loose and was jamming the armature. It still turned over but not fast enough to start. Big voltage drop across terminals when starting.

[squall_line]

I sincerely appreciate all of the suggestions, everyone. I'll be pulling the starter the first chance I get later this week and keep the board posted.

Thank you!

[squall_line]

Well, I got the starter pulled (no thanks to the service manual which really doesn't show where the second bolt is), and there's a nice char around the vent area near the engagement of the gears. There's also a lot of grease and oil in the area (not wet, but really greasy), likely from my years-long oil leak from the main seal.

I also had a nut fall out when I got the starter removed. It may have been sitting on top of the starter the whole time, I can't really be sure. I doubt it was in the starter case, because it probably would have been chewed apart by the gears and/or have fallen into the clutch area by now.

I haven't taken apart the starter to see if the armatures are shot, but is there anything I should be looking for as an obvious sign with the starter in hand? I'll likely just follow the manual to disassemble it, just not sure if that'll be tonight or not.

[Roger 04 RT]

You have to remove the three bolts holding the drive-head to the motor body and then look inside for loose magnets or internal gear cover. It will be obvious.

[Groceryrun]

Those 2 small rivets can be removed with a hammer and chisel.

[squall_line]

Originally Posted by Groceryrun

Those 2 small rivets can be removed with a hammer and chisel.

I managed to drill them out, but didn't know about them until I came across them (they're not in the service manual). I should have come back here first!

In any case, definitely a loose magnet:



There are small chips/chunks of magnet in various places inside the case, too.

I'm googling around to see about rebuilding this, but I'm getting the impression that this many years on into the Hexheads and Waterheads I'm probably looking at a new starter instead?

[Groceryrun]

You can get just the starter magnet housing if you want ( please check correct part ) -
Valeo - Starter Magnet Housing [counter-clockwise]

or you can get a whole new starter -

Starting

STARTERS

Everyone will vouch for both of these fine businesses.

[tjs]

I usually buy starters from EME. The last one came from Discount Starters. I bought it mainly to see if it was any good. I installed on a customers 04 R11S. It comes with a 1 year wtty. The cost to my door was $58.88. No complaints yet. 2cnts from tjs