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GUS GUS is offline
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OK guys,deep breaths in out in out in out.Thats better!First let me tell you i am always grateful for ANY help i receive concerning keeping my s in good order.I listen,compare and then use any relevant info which will help me do the job in hand.In some cases a job can be done several different ways and still achieve the desired results.When i posted this thread i was in need of guidence,Bobby and Dave kindly pointed me in the right direction regarding what the problem could be,and how to remedy said problem.I have worked on and serviced most of my bikes myself,mainly because of cost.However as this is my first beemer,things like shaft drive and all the gubbings are new to me.As bobby runs a shop and sees bmw,s day in day out,i am sure he has lots to offer this board.Which is free after all.Good doctor,maybe you could have replyed to my thread without the verbal attack you administered to bobby.Maybe an apology is in order,don,t you think?Anyway i,m going to carry out said maintenance friday,chris canning has kindley offered me the use of his garage.Beats working out on the street!Once again thanks for ALL your help guys.

regards gus

Old 02-04-2003, 10:36 AM
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I am sorry that I mentioned anything about Atlanta at all. I know nothing about BMW of Atlanta and have not been to the city itself in over two years. I know nothing but good things about BMW of Atlanta and have no reason to think anything but the best about the dealer the owners, Bobby, and the shop workers. I have never heard anything negative about the dealership and my recent post on rear wheel play was in no way intended to slight Bobby, BMW of Atlanta, or anyone involved with it.

I "thought" that BMW of Atlanta was the same old shop that is a large Car dealership with a beautiful Motorcycle showroom as well. It, and the other shop in Atlanta at the time were quite competitive and often wrenchs shifted jobs after being hired away from others. This was 3 to 6 years ago however and I am glad to stand corrected by Bobby that the dealership he works for has moved well past those "good old days."

The tech being written on this thread just seemed unusually thick with unspecific information to the point that the issue was being confused. Bobby started talked about "squeezing rubber" to tighten things up. The whole conversation about paralever strut rubbers, and up to down flutter, and "reaching in to grease the left one" and on and on.........just seemed to me that those listing were perfectly capable of doing the whole job right........but had not actually done it.

I should have let it go except that this area is a inhearently weak link in the BMW drivetrain and as Bobby correctly points out (finally) in his last post, this area must be treated as routine maintaince by both dealers and owners......but that is not often the case.

BMW of Atlanta is to be offered a thumbs up for checking each bike when it comes in and not letting it leave until a loose wheel (tapered bearing rear end pivots) is corrected. This works well as long as you know the history of the bike and as long as you know how long it has been loose. Most dealers and owners simply note the loosness, pull the left piviot bolt, smear some grease on the enclosed race, retighten it and keep on going.

Don't do it that way unless you know you have caught the loose play very early. Its that "right" side taper bearing that will fail when you lease expect it because you have no way of knowing if it was it (right) OR the easy to get to "left" bearing that was going dry and loose slowly....... and leading to a condition of alignment (wheel) play. Once the notch (bearing to race) sets up its too late, period. While its possible to hide this condition by loosening the strut and moving the rearend up and down its full arc of travel........and therby forcing the rollers up and over their new found notches to a smooth part of the race...........the problem is still there and will reoccur in short time.

If you are a "S" rider that pushes it when all conditions are right on the road then be a rider who also makes sure all conditions are right in this critical area as well.

Pull the whole rear end off. Inspect, replace, and regrease as necessary. Clean all well, use light blue locktight, take care with the "spline-up," and drive on with confidence. Use a better grease, of your choice, than was originally supplied by BMW, when greasing the spline and the bearings.

Thank you Bobby for pointing out my error about BMW of Atlanta and I will not error in that direction again. Thanks also for the BCR clutch (disc) and rear end tip in the race kit. I did not know about it and have not seen one. Have you?? I bought the first BCR (Serial #10) sold in Flordia, got the race rules at once, got the kit contents, and parts numbers from BMW and still find no reference to the clutch....... but now that I know about it and the rear end as well I will make every effort to track these down at once. The rule book states clearly that only the factory BMW parts can be used and no where have I seen anything on the clutch or especially the taller rearend. Do you have one there in Atlanta in your hand? I have been praying for a 2.61 (33/13) rear end from the factory...........could this be true?

Thanks again Bobby for the information and I'm sorry I implyed anything negative about the shop. The unclear tech comments were directed towards the posters to this thread, not to the shops they might work for. See you at Daytona.
Old 02-04-2003, 11:52 AM
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Glad we are all clear. Its hard to get technical if someone isnt asking a technical question. So you get a second rate attempt at common"ology" in order to communicate whats important. As for the BMW Daytona Race kit,.................................I started receiving components today. The new Laser race system looks great, but comes in like 10 pieces. As for the "race clutch" and rear drive,................this was news to us and anxiously awaiting to see whats special about it. Our market reps indicated they were going to make special conditions for Daytona due to its unique Banks over any other course on the circuit. Will keep ya posted. Also there are only 2 tire options Metzler or Metzler and purchase for the tires are to be arranged prior to the race through some BMW/Metzler laison. There are tons of other lil quirks, but dont have the time now to relay.


Good luck Gus on rehabing the rear, hopefully you caught it in time as to not induce a failure.
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Old 02-04-2003, 12:14 PM
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Thanks guys for mellowinging out!
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Old 02-04-2003, 12:38 PM
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Hi gents

What size is the socket??i see 28mm was mentioned,and could not find one in any of my local tool shops,sure it wasn't 27 as they seem to be readly available or do i have to look harder!!!thought i'd ask as i'm supplying the centrally heated fitted carpet garage and the tools!!!!,just want to make sure on friday night that we've got whats needed,sorry Gus!!your spannering i'm haveing a bad week!!!

Chris
Old 02-05-2003, 10:58 AM
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chris,
Brother in law gonna drop around his vernier gauge so i check socket size.I will get a socket tomorrow hopefully along with whatever else i need.Dont know whether to get a set of new pivot bearings just in case.Clarks reckon on about £25-30.I always get my bearings from local bearing stockists,a lot cheaper than oe ones.Problem being i need to take old bearing with me or bearing code/size.Sorry to hear your having a bad week,no problem if you want to leave it till a later date.
regards gus
Old 02-05-2003, 11:30 AM
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GUS GUS is offline
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God its freaking freezing out!Anyway measured locknut 30mm and alen key size is a 12mm.
regards gus
Old 02-05-2003, 12:11 PM
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Gus, thanks for confirming the size at 30mm, I don't know if that bearing is a common size that a bearing house is going to have?? It does not have a common look to it, may have been made special for the application, curious as to what you find available.
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:36 PM
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Hi Gus

Fridays Ok,i bought a 27mm doh!!still will come in handy.

Chris
Old 02-05-2003, 12:46 PM
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GUS: I was a bit confused from your first post in regard to what type of play the rear wheel has. I’m not trying to add any new information here, just seems that there are two solutions being suggested for two different types of play (maybe even three).

I’ll try to give a conclusive description of the two types I’ve heard of. The latter, I have experienced myself first hand. Please forgive the over-descriptiveness, I‘m just trying to be clear.

Sound like you’re tackling the rear pivot bearings at the rear drive gear housing and the drive shaft housing. From what I understand, this play is discovered when you grab the rear wheel at 9:00 and 3:00 O'clock positions and push/pull back and forth vigorously and feel movement, or play. The bike on it’s center stand with the rear wheel off the ground, while squatting on the right side of the bike and facing the side of the wheel and the wheel bolts, when doing this.

The other type free play, is vertical free play movement of the rear wheel. With the bike on it's center stand, with a board underneath the center stand to raise the rear wheel up. Place a long board under the rear wheel (as leverage) and gently pry up the rear wheel, from behind the bike. If the wheel moves freely a small amount, then the bolt on the Paralever torque arm, positioned closest to the transmission, could be loose. Of course it goes without saying, that prying too hard on the board can cause the bike to fall forward off it’s center stand. This is the type of free play I found when I checked my bike after experiencing the very similar symptoms which you described in your first post on this thread.

MarkC

I'd like to add, that I realize what I wrote above has already been covered here, but was wonder which type of play you have found GUS.

Last edited by MarkC; 02-05-2003 at 01:11 PM..
Old 02-05-2003, 01:03 PM
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GUS GUS is offline
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Hi mark,
Movement that i detected was from 3.00 to 9.00 position.I got my mate to see if there was any up/down movement while i balanced the bike off the floor using sidestand(sodding heavy).He wasn.t 100% sure he detected any movement in that plane.Will check using your method on friday.I do use and abuse bike hard when out riding,especially trnsmission as i can be a bit hanfisted with gear shift and clutch.Also before i felt the back end wondering about,the ride had become quite harsh.I put this down to the shocks becoming tired,but could now be related to bearing wear/adjustment.Hmm we,ll see what happens.
regards gus
Old 02-05-2003, 01:34 PM
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Hold It Guys! Forget the plank under tire method to determine if the swing arm bearings are loose. Test the swing arm by removing the wheel, putting the bike on the center stand and physicaly try and move the swing arm around. I doubt if that is where a problem lies. Remember, you will get "wheel movement" from any forces applyed to the wheel because its the whole rear end thats moving....... if the piviot bearings are loose. This is the weak area and thats where to concentrate. Good luck Gus.
You are doing the right thing by taking the whole unit off and replacing the two bearings if need be, and regreasing BOTH of them and readjusting at a minimum.

Now that you have committed let me make some suggestions that will make it go easier. I was not going to bring this up unless someone was actually doing the job.

First, forget the "propane torch" that someone suggested. Takes way too long and will never render the job smooth and easy. Secure twin heat guns like you remove paint with with so that these can be used to bring the swingarm up to 280 degrees MINIMUN on its aluminum housing. (get a lazer dot serface temperture measuring device) Do not apply heat directly to the steel alloy piviot pins but rather to the housing (or locknut) only. Do not attempt to remove the pins from the housing until correct surface temperture is reached. Remove the initial lock nut by appling heat directly to the nut, getting it above 280, so that it can be untorqued with a EXTENDED pull handle a minimum of 30 inches long. Second, be prepared to make some special tools to drift the bearings out. This in not a easy operation and the contact lip of the inner race is very small. Take care to make a percise drift. The worst part of the job if you are doing this solo is the correct reassembly of the spline "sliding connect" which not only must be aligned properly, but must be held in perfect alignment while PRESSURE is applied from the rearend housing rear housing .....toward the driveshaft. This reassembly will require some creative talent and there is a trick to holding the loose driveshaft centered WHILE you press the rearend back into position while trying to hold it centered in a area you can not see or feel.
Thirdly, use extreme care when reinserting the piviot pins into the now connected but hanging loose rear end housing. Its possible to destroy a bearing if a piviot is screwed into a misaligned bearing with its very fragile needles. Fourth, test to see that the internall connect (shaft spline female to rear end male) was made BEFORE final locktighting and torque of bearings...........the rearend to paralever can me connected ........and the wheel will turn........ EVEN IF THE INTERNAL SPLINE CONNECT has been missed. Double check by placing trans in gear at which point the wheel can't be turned by hand. Fifthly, GET the right tools and this might include a 24" torque wrench. Be prepared to pull right at 135 ft pounds. Stablize bike from the start. Other things are involved but just make sure you have the tools before you start. Hint: The boot clips need not be cut, just pryed gently to slip the boot back off the housing so that it want melt while you heat it. Mark and note all piviot and locknut positions. Pre load the piviots to about 12 ft jpounds before relaxing and the retorquing the preload to spec of about 7 ft pounds. (I am not at the shop now or I would take the percise figures from my notes) You will soon be enjoying a very smooth, driveline that maintains straighton handling in even the roughest of pavements. Good luck Gus, and to any others as well. Best,
Old 02-05-2003, 03:27 PM
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Dr Curve you make many good points, I agree with all except the propane tourch, the higher temp of the propane tourch allows you to get to the temp that kills loctite (you say 280, I thought it was 400) much quicker than a heat gun, done properly, right in the hex of the allen the heat treated driveline housing will not even be warm and the steel pin will be no where near hot enough to have its heat treat bothered. Try it next time! The effect on heat treated parts will be non existant!
Re alining the spline, very tricky indeed, the thought had never occured to me that someone could assemble it with the splines not engaged. That would make an ugly noise when they let the clutch out.
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Old 02-05-2003, 03:40 PM
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Sorry Dave, but not in this case. The propane torch will work...........in a hours time perhaps. But you are way wrong in this situation. You can hold the torch directly on the piviot pin all you want and the heat will simply be transfered and asorbed into that giant alumnium housing like a Tarpon Springs deep water sponge soaking up a humming birds tear. The heat gun spreads btu's over the wrole surface and heats things up fast and safely. One mispoint of the torch and there goes that seat paint or rubber housing. All specs are given in the factory workshop manual and 280 to 300 is max desired on this fitting. Its not a steel pin. I don't know what it is but I don't believe a magnet will stick convincly to the piviot pin. I found on one job that the pin had scared because of the bearing failure and had to be replaced as well. I went ahead and replaced both pins and both tapers on my personal bike.

Again, a standard propane torch, (high temperture flame tip on a small area of surface) can be mounted so that its flame tip is directly on the piviot pin and it would still be over one full hour before the locktight is softened......if even by then. Get at least one heat gun from Lowes.........and save a lot of time. The 30mm NUT on the left is not quite as hard to manage as the pin on the Right. This is not a job that even the shops like to do. Take care.
Old 02-05-2003, 04:48 PM
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Hi guys,
Gonna arm myself to the teeth with everything i need to do the job,and then some!I,ve used both gas and electric heat gun/torch when i used to spanner at my mates scooter shop.You learn real quick how to undo stubborn bolts/nuts on 30 year old lambrettas/vespas which have been sat in some cow shed for years.Patience and persaverance.
regards gus
Old 02-05-2003, 05:03 PM
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Just one fly in the ointment ?_my "BMW Master Certifieable Mechanickal Guy®" sez that a BMW bulliten of some many months ( like 18 to 24ish ) relates that NO loctite be used on the *really large* jam nut/allen adjuster on the inside of the drive shaft housing.

That is all.

jeff
smoke 'em if you gottem...
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Old 02-05-2003, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GUS
Hi mark,
Movement that i detected was from 3.00 to 9.00 position.I got my mate to see if there was any up/down movement while i balanced the bike off the floor using sidestand(sodding heavy).He wasn.t 100% sure he detected any movement in that plane.Will check using your method on friday.I do use and abuse bike hard when out riding,especially trnsmission as i can be a bit hanfisted with gear shift and clutch.Also before i felt the back end wondering about,the ride had become quite harsh.I put this down to the shocks becoming tired,but could now be related to bearing wear/adjustment.Hmm we,ll see what happens.
regards gus
Gus; Glad to hear you found where the play is coming from. Just as you indicated, the 9:00-3:00 O‘clock ‘wiggle test’ would suspect the bearings at the rear diff/drive shaft housing. I only mentioned the Paralever torque arm bolt as this was being discussed along with the rear pivot bearings at the rear diff/drive shaft housing, two different places. As you likely know, tightening the bolt/nut on the forward section of the Paralever torque arm (the bolt/nut in question) is very simple, and can be done in a couple of minutes. Without a center stand, you did as I would have, simply lifting up on the rear with the side stand as leverage is one way. But again, since you have isolated the play at the bearings at the rear diff/drive shaft housing, the Paralever torque arm bolt is probably fine (again, yet simple to tighten).
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Curve
Hold It Guys! Forget the plank under tire method to determine if the swing arm bearings are loose. ....
The plank under the tire method was only to test if the bolt/nut on the forward part of the Paralever torque arm was loose or not. I never suggested this was the way to test the bearings. Please see the illustration: The area inside the red circle shows the forward section of the Paralever torque arm bolt/nut of which I am writing of.


Good luck with it GUS and tell us how you made out.
MarkC
Old 02-05-2003, 11:39 PM
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got 30mm socket today.I got a impact one just in case!Gonna phone clarks to see how much bearings are.
regards gus
Old 02-06-2003, 09:37 AM
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£25 the pair inc vat,also carry them in stock.
regards gus
Old 02-06-2003, 10:24 AM
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Hi all,
Job done!Bearings were only in need of adjustment and repacking with grease.Chris and i were surprised to find how little grease there actually was in and around bearings and on drive shaft spline.A little bit of rust was also present,this simply wiped off with a cloth.We used a hot air gun to soften locktite,this was only needed on fixed bearing stud(outside).Everything was cleaned and relubed/greased,dont be shy with grease.Reassembled everything,then disassembled everthing.Reassemmbled again,this time making sure spline on rear drive ACTUALLY mated with drive shaft!Now that would have been funny come to driving off time!By this time we probulary hold world record for reassembly!What a difference this has made,no wheel play and way smoother ride.Should have done this a lot sooner,but glad i did,nt have to replace bearings.My bike has 33000 miles on it,and i reckon i caught them just in time.Will now check and relube every 12000 service.Things to watch out for ,make sure tapered spacer on inner adjustable stud is inserted in bearing before you offer final drive to paralever arm.Take care and double check that spline has mated with drive shaft!DOH!Apart from that job is not really that hard,you will need two people though.
Many thanks again chris and june,these good people fed and watered me,and provided me with a nice warm garage and vast array of tools to make the job easier.You would be hard pushed to meet a nicer couple,proper biking people!
regards gus

Old 02-07-2003, 04:09 PM
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