R1100S Input Spline Preventive Maintenance
 

Greetings all,
I’m a semi regular follower of this excellent forum. Could any of you comment on how far one should take PMs for oilhead input splines? I’ve reviewed many of the posts on this site including Dana’s thread which I didn’t want to highjack.

My bike is stored in Vancouver BC – I intend to do some touring on the west coast this summer. It has just 28,000 miles (44K Km) but don’t want to be stranded on a long ride. The bike’s fully bars; lowered with a 25 litre tank for long distance touring, etc. I figured its best to clean & lubricate the input splines before there’s too much wear. Here’s a picture if anyone’s interested.

I know it’s ugly.…but it’s effective. I’ve kept all the original parts for the next guy.

The last spline inspection showed a slight increase in play from the year before. I estimate movement to be less than 2mm at the outside of the clutch. I’m assuming that the friction disk & slave cylinder seals should be replaced at the very least.

My questions for you are:
Should the complete clutch pack be replaced?
Should I replace the clutch slave cylinder or is a seal kit OK?
Are there engine & transmission seals that are easily replaced?
Would a JL paralever bushing kit be a good proactive measure?

Thanks in advance,
Charleshttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1522120119.jpg

At less than 2 mm at 28K miles I'm gonna say you don't have the classic spline problem. I'd button it up and check it again in 10K miles.

Thanks Jim,
I don't look forward to pulling it apart since there isn't full compliment of tools in Vancouver where the bike is stored. This would be my first spline lube. That said, I'm picky on preventive maintenance before trips, especially with a "show stopper".

Assuming the clutch was accessible & splines are OK, would you consider replace the friction disk with a deeper hub version?

Charles

If you don't have any of the classic symptoms you're probably fine. At 28K mine was showing the snatchy downshift.

check your paralever prelaod should be no slop,
check the rear wheel bearings,
you can do a clutch inspection through the starter hole
but as others have said it could be fine,
you can inspect your slave cylinder for leaks,
drill a drain hole while you are in there,
these dont allways fail so inspection should be ok,
these inspections dont require much dissasmebly usually a few hours work

Thanks Flatbutt & Brent, I'll take your suggestions into account.

The input spline issue has been a major topic of concern for many owners. Memory says the older designs took way less maintenance - I thought I'd confirm. My R75 maintenance schedule actually calls for clutch spline lubrication at 30K miles. The Guzzi schedule doesn't mention it but the consensus is they should be done at about the same time. Both clutch splines can be accessed by only pulls the gearbox rearward an inch or two.

Could it be the older bikes take as much or more maintenance, we just didn't do it? Maybe Europeans ride shorter distances & expect to do more maintenance?

In any case, you've given me more options,
Thanks for the advice,
Charles

If the 2mm is okay that that’s good news for you Charles.
Just a thought on that measurement though, it sounds like you assume any wear is on the clutch disk itself. I agree it should be as the output shaft should be hard as nails, but is it?
I hope you never have to strip it down, but if you did then maybe the output shaft would need replacement as well.
I must admit that I’m worried about my bike and I should do an inspection too.
Best of luck with yours.

Charles,

You might consider buying the parts and shipping them up there well before you go. That way if something serious happens you'll have what you need already, save all the time waiting on shipments, phone calls trying to find the parts, cost of overnight shipping, etc, just a matter of doing it. I'd hate to try that clutch job in a parking lot with just the onboard toolkit. You would need a torque wrench to reassemble, plus the lubes and fluids and a Clymers for instructions and torques. If you don't use the parts, you could return what you don't want to keep on hand.

One of the theories on the cause of the clutch spline failure you may have seen is that the clutch "basket" is not "true" on the crankshaft, that they may have been handled roughly in shipping from Germany, i.e. dropped from a few feet on the loading dock, enough to warp the thin clutch housing disc. With the bike's front wheel removed and the engine on a block supporting the front end, that is a possibility and would explain the random occurrence and account for the reports of complete new clutch assemblies curing the problem (as opposed to just replacing the friction disc).

IF that IS the case, checking for any wobble of the clutch would be very simple: remove the starter, disconnect the elec connections on the fuel injectors, remove the spark plugs, spin the engine and watch the edge of the clutch. You could also measure any runout as well. Doing this before the trip might help put your mind at ease, anyway.

I’d b more concerned about falling off the bike and punching a hole in the fuel tank than Anything going wrong with the gearbox spline.

If you simply HAVE to do something that might be a good idea. I've never installed one but I've heard good things about them.

Thanks for your feedback, I'll respond separately,

Alfa:
I measured the input spline play as described on a video clip that's referenced somewhere on this site. That is Radially by moving the friction disk up & down. I placed a mark on the disk & an adjoining one on a stationary part. The play was less than 2 mm. I doubt drive related shafts are especially hard. Since they carry twisting loads in both directions I'd expect them to be "tough".

Lowndes:
That cause of spline failure is one I haven't heard of. Its interesting in that it preserves the idea of German precision. Experience in the Porsche world shows there's plenty of inconsistency in manufacturing. I suspect the processes in final assembly are pretty good but there's a lack of accuracy in purchased parts.

Chris:
I worried about puncturing the tank as well. Its not visible in the photo but I made sure the outside of the tank was clear of the ground from the head to the bars, with the wheel turned. Also the tank is made of fairly heavy material & its double welded.
That said, I wouldn't do it again - better to buy another bike. There's complications when you drop the side of the tank where the snorkel is. Capacity in increased but a bunch goes to reserve unless the pump inlet is lowered. Also there's the issue of moving fuel form one side to the other. It was a very time consuming project, at least I don't think about where to find fuel very much.

Jim:
I suppose one of the advantages of removing the gear box, lubricating the splines but leaving the clutch in place is there's no question of wearing in a new disk with old clutch parts. (That's assuming clutch wear to be minimal) I may buy a modified disk just in case.

There was an interesting paper published on one of the Guzzi sites a while back. (I also have a 1980 LeMans) The author recommended not using the gears for compression braking to slow down too often. He theorized that this caused unnecessary drive train wear plus excess fueling. Also brake parts are cheaper to replace than drive parts. Many owners of older Porsche 911's do the same. Its more natural in a car since there's more torque available. There's definitely a need to gear up & down on a twisty or hilly road. I've tried this idea at stop lights but its more natural drop a couple gears as you slow down. Maybe its old habits, like blipping the throttle before you pull away.

yeah the clutch plate/flywheel not being true or concentric has not held up for the ones that
I have done, I checked them all with a dial indicator and the disks were straight,
the engine to transmission alignment seems to be the measured demonstrated issue.
really 2mm I would just ride it, 2mm at the edge should just be a few degrees
even new ones have some movement.
and there is really no specified lube interval like the old k bikes.

+ what brentw1 said. This is a classic fatigue problem induced by 1/rev spline teeth loading and fretting the faces of the spline. The alignment of the clutch basket has nothing to do with this problem as the clutch resets itself every time it is released. But if the crankshaft and input shaft don't rotate on exactly the same center, all bets are off as the spline system will sees a lot fretting due to radial loading. The input bearing and the rear engine main bearing wear out loading against each other.

At least that's my opinion as a retired mechanical engineer with an R90/6 that did it (input spline failure) to me 15 years ago.

Thanks for your ideas, they're more reassuring than I expected.

I guess its not possible to check the misalignment by running the bike in neutral. Could wobble in the clutch plate caused by misalignment be detected or is there too much variation in parts?

Its a wonder that an organization like BMW allowed this sort of issue to persist so long. Even more critical failures were occurring in 911's during the same period. The company wouldn't disclose the warranty claims. A class action in the US finally brought it to a head. Maybe owners in Europe are more accepting - which allows companies to delay corrections.

In any case, I love the feel of the R1100S on the highway & plan to keep riding. I have a couple of questions regarding ergonomics for back roads touring - I may open a new thread for that.

Charles

all of the information says only some were misaligned some are perfectly ok,
ive replaced stripped ones on bikes with under 10k on them,
and had some with over 50k that were worn but not ready to fail.
and on the 1150 versions which use the same shafts and motor block,
ive replaced clutches, same clutch, that the disk was worn out but the splines were fine,
so it really appears to be a manufacturing defect in some individuals.
I use the Rapid dog bar backs for riding long distances on back roads.
they take most of the weight off of your wrists at above 40 or so
for me 5"11,

you cant measure it without taking it all apart and using various methods of checking
alignment between the transmission housing and the engine block,
long threads on this on various boards.

Chris's point above was that it's something that might happen, but with 80,000 of these bikes out there, your time is better spent just riding till something breaks... Because it may never break.

Thanks everyone,
Your advice to "just ride", will be taken into consideration. I'm hoping to do a longer run to the southern US or Alaska out of Vancouver in a few months. Mexico has a pull to, it was great place to tour but that was many years ago.

Regarding bars, one of the first things I did was install bar backs but still felt cramped. (I'm pretty short at 5'-7") The next addition was the addition of Tarozzi risers. They can be adjusted in all directions. The combination of risers & bar backs felt too indirect. The final set-up using only the risers is near perfect for me, about 2" back & 3" taller plus good feel of the front end. Here's an image of the expanded fuel tank & Tarozzi Risers on Back Backs.



Best,
Charleshttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1522372960.jpg