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-   BMW R1100S / R1200S Tech Forum (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/)
-   -   Lenny's sprocket info (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/996830-lennys-sprocket-info.html)

tm1100s 05-17-2018 08:43 AM

Lennie's sprocket info
 
Thinking about a set of Lennie sprockets should they become available but here's an unusual request.

For my own purposes and just for something to do, is anyone equipped and capable of securing a compression waveform from a Lennie sprocket equipped engine? Or anyone within reasonable driving distance of Santa Barbara and I'll do it. Maybe Lennie already has one.

Thanks,
Tony

signit98 05-17-2018 11:48 AM

I am in range... but Sergio is closer.

If I remember correctly, we put them into one of his bikes... not sure which one, though.

I do not, however have the equipment to produce the info you desire, Tony.

tm1100s 05-17-2018 08:07 PM

Thanks, Ralf.

My equipment is portable. Might be worth a ride now that school's out.

I take it your 1200GS is sprocket equipped? I'd like to get an 1100 and a 1200 sample.

lennie 05-18-2018 02:58 AM

hi TM,

I have not done this compression waveform data capture as I am not equipped to do so but would be interested in a before (stock) and after (Rocket Sprocket) result.

btw, it is Lennie :)

tm1100s 05-18-2018 06:18 AM

Thanks, Lennie, a before and after is exactly what I had in mind.

What's the availability of sprockets these days?

Tony

2wheelmike 05-18-2018 01:41 PM

What is the equipment used to measure compression waveform data? Is this one of the piezo-electric spark plug washers to measure cylinder pressure? Is this the way designers design camshafts? I could see it in use to design pistons, squish areas.

tm1100s 05-18-2018 04:02 PM

Hiya, Mike.

I use a pressure transducer screwed into a spark plug hole to send the signal to a digital storage O-scope. Works just like a compression gauge except it sends a signal to the scope instead of pressure to the meter. Measures volts instead of PSI.

lennie 05-19-2018 02:49 AM

tm,

lots in stock. pm me as I can donate a set for this test.

SergioK 05-19-2018 03:12 PM

Let me know if you want to test on my R1200GS. Ralf installed Lennie’s ‘rocket’ sprockets on them back in 2010 or 2011, can’t recall now. Bike is laid up at the moment awaiting new shoes.

tm1100s 05-19-2018 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SergioK (Post 10043188)
Let me know if you want to test on my R1200GS. Ralf installed Lennie’s ‘rocket’ sprockets on them back in 2010 or 2011, can’t recall now. Bike is laid up at the moment awaiting new shoes.

Thanks, Sergio.

Just PM'd Lennie about some sprockets. I'll do the 'before' tests in the next few days and post them, then see what happens. If there's not the detail I'm hoping for then I won't waste any more time with it.

Tony

Rapid Dog 05-21-2018 09:05 AM

Huh, them bikes is old ain't they?....

tm1100s 05-22-2018 06:13 PM

Did some testing and there seems to be a little interest so this is what I came up with. I'll just post it here for whatever the interest is and also so Lennie can look and download but I'll send him the actual session in Picoscope format. I didn't get the detail I was looking for but this R1200S stock cam and gear should prove to be a good reading. Taken running on one cylinder just above idle. I couldn't get the R1100S to run on one cylinder even for a few seconds but I'll try it again tomorrow. The R1200S had very little problem running on only one. I marked up the waveform but rather than get longwinded right here, a better explanation is located at this site, with examples:

https://www.automotivetestsolutions.com/anatomy-of-the-compression-waveform.html

This is the actual running compression waveform. The area between the two peaks is one complete 720 degree four stroke cycle.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1527039080.png

Other than the peaks at 'A' which is TDC compression stroke, the rest of the waveform is much flatter than the examples on the ATS website and from automobile engine. This test reads in-cylinder pressure. I suspect that because our bikes have virtually no intake manifold or at most a very small volume one between the throttle valve and the intake valves, and have very little exhaust backpressure to affect the in-cylinder pressures, almost the entire range of pressure readings is a little lower than auto engines. I'll try for better detail but this should actually have enough detail to see the differences in cam timing between stock and Lennie's changes. This was done with a Picoscope. Timing differences can be measured down to tenths of a degree. I also have access to that same equipment shown on the ATS site. It'll allow me to overlay the ignition and fuel injection operation on top of the valve timing data.

Sorry, I just find this stuff interesting. And, just for some other information, this particular test is becoming invaluable for diagnosing engine and variable cam timing issues with a lot of the new cars- flat cams, lifters, skipped/slipped belt tooth inline or bank-to-bank and even roller tappets found with a slightly out of round rollers causing misfires.

I'll post the Pico data file here later for Lennie and anyone else who wants to play with that using the Pico software.

The areas of interest are where the 180 degree line falls in reference to the exhaust valve opening (D-F) and the 360 TDC line falls in reference to the overlap (near G-H).

Here is the waveform from the R1100S BCR and also another from the R1200s, both having a cursor at the opening of the exhaust valve and marked in degrees.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1529790020.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1529790020.jpg

Here the link for the Picoscope files for both bikes:

2005 R1100S BCR

2007 R1200S

signit98 05-28-2018 07:20 PM

While all this stuff is cool, informative, fun and interesting, the real proof is always in the pudding.

IMHO, Lennie's sprockets are where it's at for the 1100 and 1200 motors, really.

They just transformed my bikes to where I like(d) them MUCH more. BIG fan here...

lennie 05-29-2018 02:46 AM

signet,

I never paid you to say that :)

signit98 05-29-2018 02:26 PM

No, you didn't... every single person I helped with the installation, had the same thing to say, though.

This is the r12 motor as it should have been, but the EPA had their say...

tm1100s 05-30-2018 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signit98 (Post 10053564)
While all this stuff is cool, informative, fun and interesting, the real proof is always in the pudding....

Ralf, it is cool, informative and interesting, but not to most. I happen to like the hi-tech stuff and I have access to it. I knew the reports about the sprockets were excellent and I got to thinking about 'why', and having the time and tech, let's find out why. I'm interested in the timing and pressure changes that make that improvement and I'm counting on pinpointing that change and effect. Let's see what happens. I'm gonna order up some sprockets from Lennie today.

Lennie, look for the paypal shortly. Thanks. (just added: Done )

Lowndes 05-30-2018 05:15 PM

I like BOTH parts of this and want to understand more. I've still got a set of Rocket Sprokets in the envelope they came in for my R11S. Got the Induct and SJ filter installed last year (it his the rev limiter so quick now it's scary) and keep thinking about the sprockets. Wanna do a dyno before and after.

Roger 04 RT 05-31-2018 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm1100s (Post 10046793)
Did some testing and there seems to be a little interest so this is what I came up with. I'll just post it here for whatever the interest is and also so Lennie can look and download but I'll send him the actual session in Picoscope format. I didn't get the detail I was looking for but this R1200S stock cam and gear should prove to be a good reading. Taken running on one cylinder just above idle. I couldn't get the R1100S to run on one cylinder even for a few seconds but I'll try it again tomorrow. The R1200S had very little problem running on only one. I marked up the waveform but rather than get longwinded right here, a better explanation is located at this site, with examples:

https://www.automotivetestsolutions.com/anatomy-of-the-compression-waveform.html

This is the actual running compression waveform. The area between the two peaks is one complete 720 degree four stroke cycle.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1527039080.png

Other than the peaks at 'A' which is TDC compression stroke, the rest of the waveform is much flatter than the examples on the ATS website and from automobile engine. This test reads in-cylinder pressure. I suspect that because our bikes have virtually no intake manifold or at most a very small volume one between the throttle valve and the intake valves, and have very little exhaust backpressure to affect the in-cylinder pressures, almost the entire range of pressure readings is a little lower than auto engines. I'll try for better detail but this should actually have enough detail to see the differences in cam timing between stock and Lennie's changes. This was done with a Picoscope. Timing differences can be measured down to tenths of a degree. I also have access to that same equipment shown on the ATS site. It'll allow me to overlay the ignition and fuel injection operation on top of the valve timing data.

Sorry, I just find this stuff interesting. And, just for some other information, this particular test is becoming invaluable for diagnosing engine and variable cam timing issues with a lot of the new cars- flat cams, lifters, skipped/slipped belt tooth inline or bank-to-bank and even roller tappets found with a slightly out of round rollers causing misfires.

I'll post the Pico data file here later for Lennie and anyone else who wants to play with that using the Pico software.

The areas of interest are where the 180 degree line falls in reference to the exhaust valve opening (D-F) and the 360 TDC line falls in reference to the overlap (near G-H).

Bravo! Great start. Looking forward to the next set of data.

What about measuring pressure in a cylinder that is firing, at least partly. Since these are twin spark cylinders you could run on one plug (although the effective ignition timing would be retarded due to the lack of the second flame front).

tm1100s 05-31-2018 06:25 AM

Good question and I don't know how to answer that question or what the advantages would be. I forwarded that question to the experts and I'll let you know what they say.

Roger 04 RT 06-01-2018 02:13 AM

Tm, One thing that would do is allow you to measure the timing and width of the combustion pressure peak which is much different in shape and well after TDC. In other words you’d get a close look at how the sprockets affected actual combustion.


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