$5995 Boxster - Need Diagnostics Experts

[Doug&Julie]

I also posted this on the Rennlist, but we have some different experts here, so...

Yesterday Julie and I went to look at a Boxster for sale at our local VW dealership. It was advertised for $5995, so naturally that peaked our curiosity! We figured it would be far from perfect, but were curious to see how much work it needed and could we make it a worthwhile purchase for a future Doug car. I'll save the suspense...no, we didn't buy it. In fact, emphatically NO. Unfortunately, in my opinion its near a parts car. But I thought I'd share some issues here and see if some of our experts could diagnose what could be wrong and give us an idea on the costs required to fix them. The car in a nutshell doesn't seem so bad...1999 Boxster, black / red / black top, 140k miles, Tip with a few nice options (TC and heated seats). Not bad, right? Now let's get into the issues I'd love to get your thoughts on...

1) The front suspension has a "clank" or "twang" sound coming from it when you turn the wheel. Not a squeak or grind, a genuine (alarmingly loud) twang. I only drove it around the parking lot, but as I turned the wheel I'd get these twangs. I didn't have a lot of straight line driving to confirm, but I think it was only with the steering. I did notice that I could turn the wheel and it wouldn't "unwind" without me forcing back to straight. When we looked in the front trunk, there were two parts in a bag that looked like tie-rod ends, if that offers any clue as to what could be wrong.

2) I think it needed a new ignition switch. When I first turned the key to start the car I got nothing but lights. Turned the key back all the way, tried again and it started right up.

3) At start up there was no engine smoke of any kind. After driving around the lot Julie noted smoke in the exhaust. When I got out of it to look again I saw a little smoke-like substance visible in the exhaust. Not sure I'd call it white smoke so much as just visible exhaust. We also found a half empty bottle of oil in the front trunk. Another clue?

4) The driver's seat was, aside from being worn (complete with red electrical tape to "fix" tears), fused into position. It had memory seats, but nothing would move. The electrics did nothing. I couldn't even tilt the seat forward with the lever on the side. Trying to force anything, it literally felt fused in position. Weird.

5) The driver's side window would come down it's half inch or so when you opened the door, but as soon as you let go of the handle (when the door was open) it would raise back up. Aren't they supposed to stay down until the door is closed? To close the door you had to hold the handle up, get it to partially close, then push it the rest of the way closed.

6) The passenger side window wasn't working at all. In fact, it appeared to be completely off track. For the twenty minutes or so we looked at the car, it would inch lower and lower with every shake of the car or opening of the door.

7) The red carpets were virtually pink with fade. Purely cosmetic, but distractingly bad. And Julie said they smelled.

8) The top actually wasn't in too bad of shape, save for the back window. The stitching was 85% in place, but was gone on the sides where the plastic folds. There the PO actually tried to silicone that together, with poor results. When we dropped the top, it separated. The rest of the top had some usual wear, but opened and closed quickly and smoothly.

9) The airbag warning light stayed on.

10) The TC Off light stayed on, even though I never turned it off and the switch didn't indicate it was off.

Those were the major items. I didn't get to drive the car because I was too afraid of what the front suspension might be. From what I could tell the trans seemed smooth and the brakes seemed good. The body was full of little nicks and dings. CARFAX reported an accident to the left front about 60k miles ago, but I didn't see any irregular panel gaps or any obvious signs, so maybe it was a small fender bender. The car was on Boxster 17" twist wheels with Blizzak winter tires (a plus in my book, as I would put on a set of summer wheels / tires and wouldn't have to buy winters!)

So anyway, my logic was the car in good shape was still worth less than $10k with the miles on it. I figured the cost to fix all of these items would approach that value, so I passed on the car. (Well, I told him I might consider it for around $2500, but really no way was it worth $6k.) I think they would have come down some, but I doubt they want to let it go for less than $5k.

So what do we think? How much do we think it would cost to set this car straight?

[txhokie4life]

This looks to be a good start for a Spec Boxster!!!
Oh but you said it was a TIP=== still maybe a Tip Track Car.

My guess is that if the carpet smelled there has been water intrusion
and fortunately the IMMOB didn't bite it -- but the seats probably are rusted in place.

at 140k miles -- it might have had some oil leaks.
also the AOS maybe old -- and need replacing.
if the car has been sitting at all -- oil out the exhaust (a small amount
at startup would be normal)

It probably needs new bushings in the front == no big deal -- might need
new CV joints and bushings all around at that age/mileage.

A lot of what you are complaining about are cosmetic issues -- which can
add up to a lot -- but for a track car -- would all be replaced or
wouldn't be an issue.

seriously -- at say 3500 or 4k -- you would have a great start of a track car :-)

everyday driver -- or weekend fun -- save your time and energy -- double your
budget and find something a whole lot better.

mike

[Doug&Julie]

Thanks Mike. Seems like great minds think alike, as a few people on the Rennlist mentioned it would make a great track car as well. But for a driver the general consensus is, sadly, it'll never be "worth it" to bring it up to snuff. Too bad...it was once a great car. Let's hope a racer buys it!

[Doug&Julie]

Thought I'd share this post from "Macster" on the Rennlist board. He really seems to know his stuff, and I think he's dead on with this assessment:

"Roughly but in the ball park it would cost at least as much to put the car right as the seller was asking for the car.

Assuming the car's not been in an accident and the front end troubles are not indicative of a botched accident repair figure on replacing the various wear items in the front suspension/steering. While the noise might just be a broken sway bar link loose the other symptoms suggest something far more serious.

Ignition switch is a DIY project. I can't remember what the parts cost is but in the region of a few hundred dollars.

The smoking after engine's been run a while suggests rings/valve guides/seals. Assuming the smoke oil smoke. Engine oil consumption has to be pretty bad to show up as oil smoke while engine running. You could take car out and with engine warm and plenty of oil in the engine and a spare quart in the trunk take car up to speed then let car coast down on engine compression. Quickly depress the accelerator and note any signs of exhaust smoke. If any smoke rings, or valve guides or at least seals. You could run a compression test and if the results point to troubles then a leak down test to try to determine if it is rings or valves the cause of the poor compression results. You might find the block's shot in which case the engine's toast.

Regardless what you find -- unless by luck you find smoking related to say a bad AOS -- the engine will have to come out and then torn down and the guilty items id'd and replaced. My guess is while you are there other wear items will need attention: chain guides/tensioners, VarioCam actuators, oil pump, water pump, injectors, spark plugs, coils.

Items 3 through 7 and 9 and 10 suggest the car's been wet, real wet. Maybe top left open in rain, drain holes blocked and water overflowed into cabin, maybe even flood damaged. Or from item 8 the water got in past the bad stitching.

A new top can be fitted. I don't know the price.

To put this right requires complete disassembly of the cabin portion affected: seats come out (can be replaced with aftermarket seats perhaps), carpeting, door panels. The electronics box under the driver's seat likely kaput so budget a replacement of that. The rest of the items can be replaced with items obtained from salvaged vehicle. Interior decor might not match after but the car won't stink and the electrics will work reliably.

Frankly and honestly I wouldn't have the car if the seller gave it too me. The car has nothing going for it that requires it be saved from the crusher. It is just an old used Boxster that through no fault of its own was allowed to get in a condition that requires more money than the car is worth to put right.

There are similar cars in far better condition for not much more money that the seller is asking for this car.

Non-running Boxsters were going for around $3500 6 months back with runners $1000 more. These cars were destined to be parts donor cars. While this car running with the engine's very likely shot condition and the other troubles this car would qualify I believe for a non-running Boxster value at best and that would be probably south of the $3500 figure.

As I believe someone else touched upon if someone's looking for a track car then a $1000 or so less and the car could be gutted and the interior stinky parts removed. The top replaced with hardtop or cheap new top. Seats replaced with aftermarket. The front end problems would have to be addressed fo course.

Engine's still a big unknown. I doubt its condition would allow the car to remain unblack flagged for long so it would have to be fixed. Now someone with making this a track car in mind might have a back up engine sitting around and the original engine could be yanked and maybe torn down to see if it is salvagable.

Sincerely,

Macster."

[jcb986]

The dealer is asking $5995.00...you have a $3000 car...offer him the $3000 cash and no dealer fees or any bull.

1) Engine has 144,000 miles. Porsche believes this is good mileage and is at expected end life cycle. It could last way beyond 200,000 miles. Most likely rear seal and replace IMS bearing. Now with the TIP out replace all the seals.
2) TIP transmission. I love the the TIP. $700 service for that item too. That's to drain and replace the oil, drop the pan and replace filter and gaskets.
3) Front suspension most likely can be repaired by you.
3) Windows can be fixed by you.
4) Ignition can be fixed by you.
5) Interior, you can by good interiors from guys who have turn their cars into track cars.
6) If remote will lock and unlock the doors, your alarm system is still functional. If it gets wet and is ruined it will cost another $1200.
7) Fender benders happens all the time.

It's a toy if you want it. I would get a good Porsche repair shop to give you a estimate for the major stuff.

[Wayne 962]

Cool deal, all of this is covered in my new book!

1- Probably needs some tie rods or something replaced there. You can't tell until you get it up on a lift. Nothing too terrible, the front suspension is easy to work on. The parts are still a bit pricey though.

2- The ignition switch replacement / upgrade is a standard thing to do on the early cars. Porsche came out with an improved version that you need to update if you have trouble with your original one.

3- Hard to tell, you'd need to runa compression check and leakdown. At $140K, maybe the rings and valves are beginning to leak. If the reset of the engine were okay, you'd be able to tear it down and replace rings, main bearings, rod bearings, and do a valve job on it.

4- If the seat controller is not working, it won't move at all. On my car this happened when I got it, but it was merely a blown fuse.

5- This is caused by bad door switches. Also covered in my book, pretty straightforward

6- The doors and windows are relatively easy fixes, I cover this fully in one of the projects.

7- I'm doing a carpet replacement project right now that will be up on the site, but not in the book. Takes probably about 4-5 hours. Used sets can be found on eBay for a few hundred dollars. They smell becasuse the drains get clogged and then water gets in there.

8- The rear windows are near impossible to replace. I recommend the replacement of the top with one that has a glass window. We did this project for the book, it was a bear, but doable.

9- You need to plug it into the computer and see what sensors are bad and/or need attention.

10- Probably related to a wheel sensor, maybe having something to do with the noise from the front?

As you said, all of these things are fixable. If you do it yourself, it's just parts, which are still somewhat expensive. Someone will buy it and fix it up, at that price, it's pretty cheap.

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by jcb986

2) TIP transmission. I love the the TIP. $700 service for that item too. That's to drain and replace the oil, drop the pan and replace filter and gaskets.

Maybe from the dealer? The project in the Boxster book shows how to do this in about 3 hrs with a total cost under $100...

-Wayne

[jcb986]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Maybe from the dealer? The project in the Boxster book shows how to do this in about 3 hrs with a total cost under $100...

-Wayne

I do not know what his capabilities are and what tools he has so I suggested that as a cost if he took to Porsche shop. I priced the oil, the filter, gasket from you guys and it was around $150. So, the $100 is your cost...how about some more parts for cost.

[Doug&Julie]

Thanks for the input guys. Wayne, you need to get that book out!

Autotrader.com still shows the car for sale, even though they said they had "hundreds of e-mails about this car". Actually I don't doubt that part so much, just can't see anybody actually paying for that car once they learn all that's wrong with it.

I'm going to keep an eye on it and if it's still for sale in a couple weeks, I may try to make them a cheap offer. Who knows, maybe they'll just want to get rid of it?!

[Doug&Julie]

Oh, and FYI I'm an average mechanic at best. But I get a little braver when I don't have a lot inve$ted in whatever I'm working on.

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by jcb986

I do not know what his capabilities are and what tools he has so I suggested that as a cost if he took to Porsche shop. I priced the oil, the filter, gasket from you guys and it was around $150. So, the $100 is your cost...how about some more parts for cost.

I was just guessing on the cost from memory. Bad guess...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

There are only three listed under $7K on AutoTrader, and the other two are wrecks. Seems like an okay deal to me at $6K. You can always part it out for more, probably...

-Wayne

[Doug&Julie]

Wayne you're a bad influence!

I should mention that I'll be on a time frame, so if I were to take this car on I'd want it to be daily driveable by...say, June / July. We think this is the year for The Move, and I would want to be done by then. (And this would take a back seat to all the house projects we'll need to complete to make the house sellable.)

Of course, we've been threatening to move for a few years now...

[Wayne 962]

Well, if you want a daily driver, then get a Honda. If you want a performance car, get a Boxster!

Seriously, I don't count on any of my Porsches for daily transportation...

-WAyne

[txhokie4life]

My Boxster S has been a great daily driver -- I've put nearly 14K miles on
the engine since we rebuilt it a little over a year ago.
Now the poor guy I bought it from with the blown freeze plug and
water pump failure would probably agree with Wayne :-)

Mike

[Doug&Julie]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Well, if you want a daily driver, then get a Honda. If you want a performance car, get a Boxster!

I prefer Subarus. Just as reliable but AWD. You see, around these parts we get this thing called "snow". You may have heard of it (or seen it in a movie). Well nothing goes better in the white death than a Subie.

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Seriously, I don't count on any of my Porsches for daily transportation...

I have to disagree with you on the not using Porsches as daily drivers. I think that's the main reason why Porsches stand over cars like Ferraris or even Corvettes...they're "supercars" that can truly be used daily. In fact, that's how they're intended to be used (a common mis-conception on this board - Porsches are road cars first, race cars second).

But I digress...

[Doug&Julie]

Well somebody bought it. At least it doesn't show up for sale anymore. I wonder who the poor suc...er, the new owner is? ..and how much they paid for it!

[JMatta]

Always a relief when someone buys a project you are looking at...takes the guesswork out of the equation! Another one will come along, likely better than this problem Box.

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by Doug&Julie

Well somebody bought it. At least it doesn't show up for sale anymore. I wonder who the poor suc...er, the new owner is? ..and how much they paid for it!

A likely customer for my new book!

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by JMatta

Always a relief when someone buys a project you are looking at...takes the guesswork out of the equation! Another one will come along, likely better than this problem Box.

Yup. I recently looked at a project car for almost a year almost hoping someone else would buy it. Then the price came down a bit, and I ended up buying it. Not sure good thing or bad thing, time will tell!

-Wayne