Update on Pelican Parts IMS kit...

[Wayne 962]

Over the weekend, we pulled the IMS bearing out of our test car (30,000 miles later). Looked as good as new! So, the kit is good to go - we were waiting for the results from this last and final test. We have some "helper bolts" on order, but these should be in stock in a few days, and the kit will be available shortly on the site for $165.

Thanks everyone for your patience,

Wayne

[feelyx]

Sweet.... that is good news on a well sorted kit.

[mikefocke]

Well sorted?

Porsche got the IMS wrong through 3 iterations and they had how many test mules and how many more miles on individual bearings? I've raised this problem of too few samples and too short testing at the introduction of every IMS bearing replacement proposed be it LN, Casper or Pelican.

One sample of 30k miles does not an adequate test make IMNSHO. Maybe that test car was a uniquely benign environment (especially since it accumulated those miles at a rate unlikely for most P-car drivers)? (I'm not unsympathetic to the problems of the cost of testing for a small volume product like this.)

Why is your testing statistically valid such that it would give the buyer confidence that your IMS bearing is a good fit for the application and will give results proportionate to the expense/labor of installation?

Another question would be ... if the bearing is only good for a recommended 30k miles, why would you suggest use of your bearing rather than the LN one thought to give about twice that trouble free miles given the size of the expense of fitment or the labor of fitment?

Help us understand your ideas of better tested but more expensive versus lesser tested but less expensive.

[showbiz]

Thanks Wayne,
After dismantling my 1997 2.5 Boxster engine I can see how this bearing failure could be fatal to these engines. excellent job so far ,the true test will be more clock time and conditions. All the best and thanks again.

[feelyx]

mike,
whats not well sorted on this kit? Wayne improved the center shaft that is prone to breaking, He upgraded the sealing of the shaft. He also added spacers to use the standard Porsche single row bearing with improved seals for the single and double row shaft.
This isn't a bearing issue, he built a universal kit to help keep our engines running. I think 30,000mi is plenty of time if it were to self destruct.

[mikefocke]

A sample of one is proof of something?

Think of the variability of the failures that have been reported for the Porsche parts ... everything from 10k to 200k. And lots lots more with no failures. Add in the suspicions that less failures occur the more the engine is used and a hurried 30k yields even less meaning (to me).

I've raised this concern about the size of the sample tested on several products including some yet to be introduced. I come from a background where millions of test cycles were done by independent testers and still defects or design flaws got through.

Yes, you may get lucky with a smaller sample and the product you sell may prove in the long run to do what you think/hope it will do. But that is what the Porsche engineers felt when they signed off on use of the 3 IMS designs ... and they were wrong all three times ,,, because all three designs/parts fail.

All moving parts fail, some sooner, some later. But eventually wear gets em all if they run long enough. Luck plays a big part when. So does the manner of use.

[Super 90]

Good grief. You don't have to buy one!

[UNYboater]

There are no guarantees in this world but I think this is a fair option for those of us that crawl into our car's inner workings as the occasion arises. Obviously Wayne is in business but (just as obviously IMO) he is also interested in improving the world for fellow enthusiasts like us. While the stock bearings have show some propensity to fail, this bearing seems to address some of the (more obvious) issues that no P-engineer should have approved. Will I expect Wayne to cover my engine's replacement if his bearing fails? Of course not. But neither has Porsche 'stood behind' their design to that extent either. It's a crap-shoot either way but I'll take my chances on this side instead of putting another Porsche bearing in, especially if I'm in there for something else anyway.

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Help us understand your ideas of better tested but more expensive versus lesser tested but less expensive.

Quite simple Mike. It's the same exact bearing that Porsche uses, and we've made the center stud thicker to counter the broken-stud issue. All that's really changed is the stud / o-ring configuration. My main concern was leakage at the intermediate shaft bearing cover.

The IMS bearings continue to fail - I believe that Charles even told me that even at least one of Charles' ceramic bearings has failed. So, there is no absolute fix. Our kit enables you to replace the bearing with the same specification one that Porsche used. So, yes, the design is no better than Porsche's original design. However, replacing it every 30,000 miles / every clutch job should be an appropriate interval to minimize engine destruction. That combined with frequent oil changes should do the trick.

-Wayne

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by UNYboater

There are no guarantees in this world but I think this is a fair option for those of us that crawl into our car's inner workings as the occasion arises. Obviously Wayne is in business but (just as obviously IMO) he is also interested in improving the world for fellow enthusiasts like us. While the stock bearings have show some propensity to fail, this bearing seems to address some of the (more obvious) issues that no P-engineer should have approved. Will I expect Wayne to cover my engine's replacement if his bearing fails? Of course not. But neither has Porsche 'stood behind' their design to that extent either. It's a crap-shoot either way but I'll take my chances on this side instead of putting another Porsche bearing in, especially if I'm in there for something else anyway.

Well put. Both you and Mike make good points. I think a lot like Mike but I love tinkering with the cars and went ahead and replaced mine with LN's fully knowing even their numbers don't prove it won't fail. I did feel they took what seemed to me a good approach to solving the problem. I'm no smarter then the Porsche engineers but obviously they couldn't get it right so I went someone else approach figuring likely it can't be any worse. I think anyone replacing the bearing in their car likely will have done enough research to decide the risk in using either LN's or Wayne's solution. Wayne is offering no promises, just an alternative, if we waited for a large enough sampling then he would never release it! Heck even the same holds true with LN's.

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by WhipE350

Wayne is offering no promises, just an alternative, if we waited for a large enough sampling then he would never release it! Heck even the same holds true with LN's.

That's also the case with airplanes and spacecraft. You design products according to good engineering principles and then test to confirm.

-Wayne

[bala]

My opinion is that even the LN design is not a guaranteed fix either. It is a solution engineered for a little more potential longevity which needs to be proven as well. If LN said that they guaranteed their bearings are far superrior and not fail when pitched against the original one then I will agree. Fact is no manufacturer will do that no matter how extensively they tested it. Maybe after a few years and a few thousand bearings in use. As it stand now noone.

i ordered the Pelican one based on my need to go with original intended sealed design and also the added benefit of the updated bolt and updated seal. Enhancing the failure points would be an additional assurance but definitely not a guarantee. So, whats one to do when the bearings being offered are not a guaranteed solution? Further minimize the risk of catastrophy. The PP bearing with the IMSG is what I will be installing, so IMO this would be a great combo for a good nights sleep and worry free driving. If PP bearing wasnt available i would have installed the original bearing with the IMSG for sure.

Couple of things that concerned me on LN bearing is that one, the bearing is open and not sealed. Second it is ceramic balls and the IMSG definitely wouldnt catch ceramic pieces if it were erroding.

[JFP in PA]

Couple of points to consider:

1. You cannot buy the OEM bearing, the only part available is the "final solution" large bearing, which comes with a new shaft to hold it. To install it, you would basically need to rebuild the engine.

2. The "open" design of the LN bearing promotes lubrication, reducing potential wear from trapped oil breaking down and leading to bearing failures.

3. While the bearings themselves are ceramic (and therefore much harder than steel) in the LN unit, the races are still steel and would be torn up quickly by the harder bearings, so they can and would be caught by the Guardian system.

[mikefocke]

Bala,

I don't understand why the "original sealed" design would be seen as an advantage if it has already been seen to be a probable cause of failure?

Given that no part supplier will guarantee your engine beyond perhaps the cost of the part they supply, why would the lack of a guarantee come into play in your calculation for one supplier and not all suppliers? There are lots of other failure parts/points in the valve train of an M96.

You say "maybe after a few years and a few thousand bearings" but isn't that exactly what distinguishes one potential supplier versus the others as of today? LN began installing exactly 3 years ago in customers cars and had 4k installs as of 2 months ago.

Given the cost of the labor for a replacement, I don't understand why you'd want to use a bearing with a recommended replacement interval half that of another (but then I generally have a long term investment view).

And I don't understand why tying the replacement to the replacement of the clutch makes sense unless you need to do the clutch now. If IMSR recommended replacement intervals are 30 or 60k, do you really replace your clutch at those intervals? Most people don't. And if you can't share the cost of transmission removal between the clutch replacement and the IMSR, then the cost for most ownership intervals gets more expensive for the bearing with the shorter interval.

Will you want to make that investment in your car to pay for the replacement when it is as old as it projects to be when the interval is up?

Hope you are enjoying the sharing of the differing points of view.

[dhagood]

a good friend of mine is looking at boxsters at the present time. he's had a 911 sc and an acura nsx in the past, and is of the mind set that one buys a sports car for a given price, runs the car hard until it's worth about 2/3 of what he paid for it, and then sells the car and moves on. boxsters are pretty cheap, and he's thinking about keeping one for a couple of years or so.

the ims failure issue is the concern (duh). he and i have talked about it, and to me it's pretty simple: treat the ims bearing as a maintenance item. so if he buys a boxster, the first thing he'd do is replace the ims bearing. i would expect that he'd use wayne's ims update kit and that he and i would do the work. in the extremely unlikely event that he keeps the car for 30,000 miles, we'd replace the ims bearing again.

is this an optimal solution? certainly not. is it a workable solution, especially for a weekend car that gets driven to work maybe once a week or so? sure seems that way to me. i'm not getting rid of my air-cooled 911 though.

[bala]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Couple of points to consider:

1. You cannot buy the OEM bearing, the only part available is the "final solution" large bearing, which comes with a new shaft to hold it. To install it, you would basically need to rebuild the engine.

2. The "open" design of the LN bearing promotes lubrication, reducing potential wear from trapped oil breaking down and leading to bearing failures.

3. While the bearings themselves are ceramic (and therefore much harder than steel) in the LN unit, the races are still steel and would be torn up quickly by the harder bearings, so they can and would be caught by the Guardian system.

1. Someone posted on another thread that they bought the same bearing and installed it. 20 bucks. That is what I meant when I said install the original bearing.

2. Here is where I'm worried. The main issue with the original bearing is that the seal breaks away and is open to debris in the oil contaminating and sending it south. Ceramic or not I think it poses the same risk as the debris can come from anywhere in the engine and affect the races.

3. Agree. But if the bearings were to go first then steel balls pose a better warning with IMSG than ceramic?

[bala]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Bala,

I don't understand why the "original sealed" design would be seen as an advantage if it has already been seen to be a probable cause of failure?

Given that no part supplier will guarantee your engine beyond perhaps the cost of the part they supply, why would the lack of a guarantee come into play in your calculation for one supplier and not all suppliers? There are lots of other failure parts/points in the valve train of an M96.

You say "maybe after a few years and a few thousand bearings" but isn't that exactly what distinguishes one potential supplier versus the others as of today? LN began installing exactly 3 years ago in customers cars and had 4k installs as of 2 months ago.

Given the cost of the labor for a replacement, I don't understand why you'd want to use a bearing with a recommended replacement interval half that of another (but then I generally have a long term investment view).

And I don't understand why tying the replacement to the replacement of the clutch makes sense unless you need to do the clutch now. If IMSR recommended replacement intervals are 30 or 60k, do you really replace your clutch at those intervals? Most people don't. And if you can't share the cost of transmission removal between the clutch replacement and the IMSR, then the cost for most ownership intervals gets more expensive for the bearing with the shorter interval.

Will you want to make that investment in your car to pay for the replacement when it is as old as it projects to be when the interval is up?

Hope you are enjoying the sharing of the differing points of view.

The main issue with the original bearing was the seal breaking off if I read and understood correctly. So an updated seal though not guaranteed 100% provides a somewhat better retention of the seal?

My choice to go with PP vs Ln was based on cost, ceramic vs steel, original design and not necessarily in that order. I'm debating about the guarantees etc as it is on the table. But, most importantly I know that there is no guarantee from anyone. I can however, stack the odds in my favor by installing the IMSG for which I feel that an all steel bearing is a better marriage than a ceramic one. Add about $400 more to that equation and it becomes more easy for me to swing the other way.

If Wayne hadn't put his kit out now I would have definitely purchased a $20 bearing and installed it but, IMSG will be a must. Add to that - religious oil changes which I would do anyway. I probably am part of minority here who want or have done IMS replacement themselves. So labor wise I have no expense. And I love working on this car.

I'm not going to hold my breath on the 30k suggested interval for replacement. And I'll take that with a grain of salt. I'll drive it as long as it holds, do the regular oil changes and when I see something amiss or IMSG starts screaming I will drop the tranny and look. If PP bearing happens to go at 10k then I'll be moving to $20 bearings in future. Why not LN you ask? I still don't buy that it is any more superior. Not for 600 bucks.

I don't want to spend too much on this car and try to make it perfect. If it goes then I will make the call at that time. In the meantime I need to just enjoy without too much worry and guilt. I just looked at my clutch assembly. The Pressure plate seems a little worn. Since I did not have an issue with the clutch I wont replace it but the clutch plate I will as it is in the last stages. I cleaned up the throw out bearing by taking it apart, some good amount of wd40, repack swepco grease into the bearing and put it back together in 20 minutes. Good as new. Saved $90 right there. My point is it is an old horse and it ain't going to make the Kentucky derby. Let's not feed it caviar but, let's not starve it either.

Love the debates Mike. Learnt so much from fellow members in the last 3 months. Keep it coming.

[Wayne 962]

NOTE: If you replace just the bearing and not the stud (you can't even buy the stud separately from Porsche), then you run the risk of the stud snapping. The Pelican kit uses a clever design to utilize a larger stud without having to machine a whole new intermediate shaft bearing cover.

The kit should be in the catalog and on sale this week. We're waiting for the set screws and helper bolts to come into stock.

-Wayne

[Alfers]

I've been monitoring this thread with great anticipation since last week. I see the kit is now available on the catalog! The timing is perfect as I am getting my clutch done next week.

Thank you Wayne - looks like it was a ton of work to put this together!

[Meirschwartz]

LOL.
the retro kit cost less then the LN tools needed to install it.
just to make sure i understand, beside the fact this kit includes a different bearing (non ceramic), the only different from the LN kit is the fact this kit is missing the IMS cover?