Kudos To Jake Raby

[Tennessee911]

November Excellance came Monday and I read the article about Jake's early warning system based on metal content in the engine oil. I'm no engineer, but it sounds like a brilliant solution to me. One of those--why didn't I think of that ideas.

Very impressed!

[big911fan]

For those of us with a Boxster S 3.2 this system isn't as much help. On the 3.2 there is no IMS bearing retrofit to replace on a preventative basis.

An IMS warning using the Raby solution still means a tear down and IMS shaft replacement. The bill for this is around a "cool" $10K I've been told. If catastrophic failure occurs it's more like $20K.

How's that for a Porsche IMS solution? Makes me feel like I'm driving around with a ticking time bomb even if the 3.2 bearing is more robust.

[smcgeary]

The unserviceable IMS came along sometime in 05 or 06 to my knowledge. It has no bearing on wether the vehicle is a regular or s model. To me buy an 04 or older, or an 09 or up. Or find one of the 05's that still has a serviceable IMS bearing.

[newlife]

Originally Posted by big911fan

For those of us with a Boxster S 3.2 this system isn't as much help. On the 3.2 there is no IMS bearing retrofit to replace on a preventative basis.

An IMS warning using the Raby solution still means a tear down and IMS shaft replacement. The bill for this is around a "cool" $10K I've been told. If catastrophic failure occurs it's more like $20K.

How's that for a Porsche IMS solution? Makes me feel like I'm driving around with a ticking time bomb even if the 3.2 bearing is more robust.

So, are you saying that my 2000 S Boxter can't be improved with an IMS upgrade ?

Thanks

Rod

[mikefocke]

Rod: Depends on if the 2000S has an original engine. The only way to know for sure is to pull the transmission and look at the IMS cover and bolts. This is covered on LN's web site.


Here is how I understand the issue...

The problems are two: you have a possible bearing/lubrication failure and you only check every so often.

There is a window...at the point the seal has broken down and the bearing itself starts to wear in its race because it is no longer effectively lubricated. At this point the bearing starts to get rough and then to shed parts of the bearings into the oil but the bearing in total is not wobbling enough YET to cause the shaft to wobble to cause the sprocket to wobble to cause catastrophic failure.

IF
· you happen to do your inspection of the oil filter or magnetic drain plug or camshaft deviation at this time and see the debris or deviation
· and understand it
· and get the car immediately flatbedded to someone who can remove the transmission and replace the IMS bearing while also removing/cleaning the oil pan and thus removing debris from the system lest it clog one of the little oil passages
...then you can most probably save the engine. But if you miss that window or miss the symptoms or debris has gotten into one of those passages...

The possible solutions I know of are two: get a much better bearing/lubrication-method or check all the time.

Of course only a very small percentage of the seals/bearings fail when measured on a car/year basis. No one knows the exact percentage. Which makes economic analysis of the various options kinda tough.

When I first heard of the “detection device”, I recognized its methodology as being that long used in the aviation industry. Therefore the theory had wide application experience. I’ve known people whose lives were saved by the cockpit warning system using the same technology used in flat6’s detector. But I had questions…you know me, the skeptic.

Could the metal bits that trigger it come from anything other than the IMS bearing? Could an alarm persuade you to replace the IMS bearing but the triggering metal really be from some other source? Jake said no other wear part within the engine is from the same type of metal.

I said it needed an audio alarm as it was buried over off to the side of the driver’s vision. Jake said it has one.

I said it looked like the drain plug it used stuck down too far below the pan (the original drain plug was almost even with the oil pan for a reason) and risked being torn off when driving over debris. Jake said he’d consider a skid plate if that concerned people but he had been driving with one for 6 months on both track and road with no problems.

A later thought was would it detect failure of an LN ceramic bearing? I think the answer is no (not that we have seen any LN bearing failures yet).

What would happen if you installed the detector after the bearing had started to fail? My actually did that with what he called a stage 1 or 2 failing bearing he had removed from a customer’s car and got a quick failure warning in time to save the engine.

Compare the detector to a magnetic drain plug or just checking the oil filter contents? The problem with the plug or filter check is you check them so infrequently. The detector is always looking for you.

So the options are (to me):
- You could spend ~$400 and 2 hours of your labor to detect a starting-to-fail IMS bearing
- You could spend ~$200 in parts to use Pelican’s replacement bearing kit (assuming it is finally released) (plus tools and labor) and still have the type of bearing Porsche used in the first place
- Spend ~$700 in parts to use LN’s bearing kit (plus tools and labor)
- Or take your chances with your current bearing.

The detection kit has the advantages in labor of being external to the engine, do-able by most of us without special tools and less expensive in parts (assuming Jake can find a way to make more since his initial production run is sold out).

The other option, to me is to get the LN bearing installed if the chance of failure worries you and if it fits in your clutch repair cycle. Using the LN part seemingly solves the problem as opposed to just detecting it and then you having to spend the money for the IMS bearing replacement if a failure of the original Porsche bearing is detected. But it is much more expensive than the detector…for most of us 4 to 10 times as much.

To me, either of the two bearing replacement kits are probably best installed by someone with a lift and the ability to remove a transmission. Plus if I don’t like the idea of a doctor performing a procedure inside me as the first one they do, why wouldn’t I want someone who had already done a dozen IMS bearing replacements to do the IMS install on my engine and that means I pay $$$$ for labor. Yes there are people who have done it themselves, but I see many stories of someone who tried and didn’t do it right because they just didn’t follow the directions or didn’t have the mechanical aptitude or buy/rent all the tools needed.

If you have a TIP, the labor for a TIP equipped car IMS installation is much more expensive.

So assuming my theory of ~1% per engine/year failure rate on the IMS, would it be a good idea to install the IMS bearing failure detection device? I go back to my “your risk tolerance is different than mine” feelings. Only you can tell…for you.

[big911fan]

If you read the post by smcgeary, Porsche changed the design of the IMS shaft on the 3.2 for the '05 through '08 model years. The redesigned IMS shaft has a larger bearing but is not separately replaceable.

The cost to replace the redesigned IMS shaft will cost in the neighborhood of
$10K. If the engine is a basket case because of catastrophic failure, you're looking at more like $20K.

In my opinion Porsche should be taken to the woodshed for this design. We all know that bearing fail at some point. If we believe the experts opinions on this, these bearings can fail early and catastrophically with little to no warning.

Since this diminishes the Porsche driving experience for me, the solution is easy. Sell the car. I feel that a $10K - $20K repair bill is not worth the risk... however small. Porsche.... what were you thinking?

[newlife]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Rod: Depends on if the 2000S has an original engine. The only way to know for sure is to pull the transmission and look at the IMS cover and bolts. This is covered on LN's web site.


Here is how I understand the issue...

The problems are two: you have a possible bearing/lubrication failure and you only check every so often.

There is a window...at the point the seal has broken down and the bearing itself starts to wear in its race because it is no longer effectively lubricated. At this point the bearing starts to get rough and then to shed parts of the bearings into the oil but the bearing in total is not wobbling enough YET to cause the shaft to wobble to cause the sprocket to wobble to cause catastrophic failure.

IF
· you happen to do your inspection of the oil filter or magnetic drain plug or camshaft deviation at this time and see the debris or deviation
· and understand it
· and get the car immediately flatbedded to someone who can remove the transmission and replace the IMS bearing while also removing/cleaning the oil pan and thus removing debris from the system lest it clog one of the little oil passages
...then you can most probably save the engine. But if you miss that window or miss the symptoms or debris has gotten into one of those passages...

The possible solutions I know of are two: get a much better bearing/lubrication-method or check all the time.

Of course only a very small percentage of the seals/bearings fail when measured on a car/year basis. No one knows the exact percentage. Which makes economic analysis of the various options kinda tough.

When I first heard of the “detection device”, I recognized its methodology as being that long used in the aviation industry. Therefore the theory had wide application experience. I’ve known people whose lives were saved by the cockpit warning system using the same technology used in flat6’s detector. But I had questions…you know me, the skeptic.

Could the metal bits that trigger it come from anything other than the IMS bearing? Could an alarm persuade you to replace the IMS bearing but the triggering metal really be from some other source? Jake said no other wear part within the engine is from the same type of metal.

I said it needed an audio alarm as it was buried over off to the side of the driver’s vision. Jake said it has one.

I said it looked like the drain plug it used stuck down too far below the pan (the original drain plug was almost even with the oil pan for a reason) and risked being torn off when driving over debris. Jake said he’d consider a skid plate if that concerned people but he had been driving with one for 6 months on both track and road with no problems.

A later thought was would it detect failure of an LN ceramic bearing? I think the answer is no (not that we have seen any LN bearing failures yet).

What would happen if you installed the detector after the bearing had started to fail? My actually did that with what he called a stage 1 or 2 failing bearing he had removed from a customer’s car and got a quick failure warning in time to save the engine.

Compare the detector to a magnetic drain plug or just checking the oil filter contents? The problem with the plug or filter check is you check them so infrequently. The detector is always looking for you.

So the options are (to me):
- You could spend ~$400 and 2 hours of your labor to detect a starting-to-fail IMS bearing
- You could spend ~$200 in parts to use Pelican’s replacement bearing kit (assuming it is finally released) (plus tools and labor) and still have the type of bearing Porsche used in the first place
- Spend ~$700 in parts to use LN’s bearing kit (plus tools and labor)
- Or take your chances with your current bearing.

The detection kit has the advantages in labor of being external to the engine, do-able by most of us without special tools and less expensive in parts (assuming Jake can find a way to make more since his initial production run is sold out).

The other option, to me is to get the LN bearing installed if the chance of failure worries you and if it fits in your clutch repair cycle. Using the LN part seemingly solves the problem as opposed to just detecting it and then you having to spend the money for the IMS bearing replacement if a failure of the original Porsche bearing is detected. But it is much more expensive than the detector…for most of us 4 to 10 times as much.

To me, either of the two bearing replacement kits are probably best installed by someone with a lift and the ability to remove a transmission. Plus if I don’t like the idea of a doctor performing a procedure inside me as the first one they do, why wouldn’t I want someone who had already done a dozen IMS bearing replacements to do the IMS install on my engine and that means I pay $$$$ for labor. Yes there are people who have done it themselves, but I see many stories of someone who tried and didn’t do it right because they just didn’t follow the directions or didn’t have the mechanical aptitude or buy/rent all the tools needed.

If you have a TIP, the labor for a TIP equipped car IMS installation is much more expensive.

So assuming my theory of ~1% per engine/year failure rate on the IMS, would it be a good idea to install the IMS bearing failure detection device? I go back to my “your risk tolerance is different than mine” feelings. Only you can tell…for you.

Mike,

Thank you, Thank you ..... for such a good post. It makes very good since and very good advise. I call it a systematic approach to good thinking and probability.

Rod

[dmcummins]

I have a 2000s with tip. Since it already has close to 100,000 miles, I am just going to take my chances. I cant see spending several thousand dollars to replace the IMS bearing. I probably would only be able to sell the car for around 10k anyway. If I have a failure, I guess I'll just have a parts car.

I do have the oil changed every 4k or 5k miles, that is about how many miles are put on the car a year now. It is no longer a daily driver, just a fun car, so if it goes down its not the end of the world.