2005 Boxster with <26k - timing chain?

[SamirD]

I have a 2005 Boxster with less than 26,000 miles on it. Yes, I rarely get a chance to drive it.

After a recent oil change to Castrol 5-50 from Mobil 1 0-40, I noticed a new noise in addition to the cams when listening beside the rear wheels. This one is intermittent and sounds similar to a metal on metal sound like when a timing chain has too much slack. Is it possible for a tensioner to go out this soon? What are some of the other things it could it be?

Any assistance appreciated.

[JFP in PA]

Yes, a tensioner can go at low mileage, as can lifters/cam followers or the chain guide paddles (they have plastic wear pads on them). 0W-40 Mobil 1 has a pretty low film strength, which can lead to issues, and the cam followers have very small passages that can easily become plugged over time, which is rather common with the M96/97. Porsche also updated the tensioners with internal springs it help hold tension until oil pressure builds up, specifically to address start up noises.

One way to check for excessive play in the cam drives is to look at your cam deviation values (PST II, PIWIS, or Durametric); at idle, the values should be rock steady; if they are not, it is often a sign of too much play in the chain dirves. Now comes the fun bit; if the values are wobbling, it is usually the IMS bearing, which may or may not be replaceable in your car, depending upon when it wa built (later 2005's have the non replaceable unit that requires total disassembly of the engine to put a new one in).

[SamirD]

Thank you very much for the quick reply. What's interesting about this noise is that it didn't occur until I switched to 5-50. I'm wondering if the 5 weight is a little too thick if there is sludge buildup in those small oil passages. I've got some 0-40, so maybe I'll do an oil change and see if the issue clears. I've thought about using some seafoam at idle before the oil change to help break up any sludge. I can hear the change in the engine noise after using this in 5mins of idling in my Japanese cars. Thoughts?

And forgive my ignorance, but what is the PST II, PIWIS, or Durametric? Sounds like a diagnostic tool, but that's just a guess.

With an engine this young, I wonder what Porsche will do if it is the IMS bearing? Although the lead technician at the local dealership swears that this issue is blown out of proportion. He's also the same person that overfilled the oil, and overtorqued the oil canister, and didn't check for leaks at a routine oil change and didn't have good answers when I confronted him about it.

[JFP in PA]

Well, I seriously doubt it is the 5W-50 oil; our standard oil in the shop for the M96/97 is 10W-40 Castrol Syntec (now "Edge with Syntec Technology"). That said, worn tensioner paddles or the tensioners themselves can create a lot of noise.

Yes, the PST II, PIWIS, and Durametric are all diagnostic tools.

If you do have an IMS issue, I seriously doubt PCNA will do anything for you, you are well out of warranty range.

[BYprodriver]

Using Seafoam in your oil will clog lifters & tensioners more with junk cleaned throughout the engine.

[JFP in PA]

Agreed; do not use Seafoam.

[seventythree]

The engine in my brother's 07 Boxster S just died at 61Kmiles. Coincidentally, it sounded very similar to what you are describing just before the so called blow-up.

He bought it new and I suggested he take it back to the dealer he bought it from. Two days later the dealer notified him that he needed a new engine for a total cost of $18k, and that PCNA had agreed to cover $9K of it on goodwill.

[dongenaro]

I experienced noise from the clutched pulley on the front of the alternator, which was heard from the rear of the car. I opened the engine compartment and used a stethoscope, (short piece of broomhandle can be substituted) to locate the likely source. This pulley is clutched so it can freewheel at high rpm's i am told, and the bearing was making noise. Even if this is not your source, see if the stethoscope can help you zero in on the noise. Just sold my 2000 hoping to purchase an S model. P.S. love the huntsville car scene, you probably know my Alabama State Trooper Javelin

[JFP in PA]

One of the hardest things to diagnose from a distance is the source of a random sound from the engine. We have had people send us sound and video clips that appeared to say it was all over for the engine; but when we got the car into the shop, it turned out to be something simple and relatively cheap such as an idler bearing. We have learned not to try to diagnose long range; sounds can be very deceptive.

[SamirD]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Well, I seriously doubt it is the 5W-50 oil; our standard oil in the shop for the M96/97 is 10W-40 Castrol Syntec (now "Edge with Syntec Technology"). That said, worn tensioner paddles or the tensioners themselves can create a lot of noise.

Yes, the PST II, PIWIS, and Durametric are all diagnostic tools.

If you do have an IMS issue, I seriously doubt PCNA will do anything for you, you are well out of warranty range.

I spoke with my friend that was the lead Porsche Technician here and one of the best techs at Foreign Cars Italia in Greensboro, NC. He said that the thicker viscosity may cause the lifters to take more time to pump up as the oil is slightly thicker. (I may have misheard this as I was in a busy restaurant.)

As far as the diagnostic tools, google them or are they service professional only tools?

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

Using Seafoam in your oil will clog lifters & tensioners more with junk cleaned throughout the engine.

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Agreed; do not use Seafoam.

Interesting. This is counter to the advice my friend gave saying that it shouldn't hurt anything. How gunked up do these engines get? Are the oil passeges that fine?

Originally Posted by seventythree

The engine in my brother's 07 Boxster S just died at 61Kmiles. Coincidentally, it sounded very similar to what you are describing just before the so called blow-up.

He bought it new and I suggested he take it back to the dealer he bought it from. Two days later the delear notified him that he needed an new engine for a total cost of $18k, and that PCNA had agreed to cover $9K of it on goodwill.

I've seen PCNA cover an engine outside of warranty that was brought in with low mileage, but with a known manufacturing defect. I'm glad to see they are somewhat generous to new car owners.

Originally Posted by dongenaro

I experienced noise from the clutched pulley on the front of the alternator, which was heard from the rear of the car. I opened the engine compartment and used a stethoscope, (short piece of broomhandle can be substituted) to locate the likely source. This pulley is clutched so it can freewheel at high rpm's i am told, and the bearing was making noise. Even if this is not your source, see if the stethoscope can help you zero in on the noise. Just sold my 2000 hoping to purchase an S model. P.S. love the huntsville car scene, you probably know my Alabama State Trooper Javelin

I do have a mechanics stethescope, but boy does it get hot under there while the car is running. I can hear the noise more promently from right under the car on both sides, so maybe I can just scope it there.

And yes, I do remember your awesome Javelin! Small world! Thank you for the compliments on the web site. I'm so glad you enjoy it. Makes the pain of not regularly driving the Boxster worth it.

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

One of the hardest things to diagnose from a distance is the source of a random sound from the engine. We have had people send us sound and video clips that appeared to say it was all over for the engine; but when we got the car into the shop, it turned out to be something simple and relatively cheap such as an idler bearing. We have learned not to try to diagnose long range; sounds can be very deceptive.

So where are you? How much to diagnose close range?

[JFP in PA]

What your tech is overlooking is that the ridiculously low viscosity of Mobil1 0W-40 also has very low film strength, which leaves little lubricant on surfaces during start up. Add in the actual small “cold” viscosity delta between a 0W and a 5W or 10W oil, there should be very little difference in how fast it pumps until you get to very low temperature extremes, unless there is something organically wrong with the oiling system. We have customers that leave their cars outside in sub zero winter temps that are running 5W-40 oil and have no problems with noise on start up, so I really can’t see how it would be an issue where you live.

PST II is the old, pre-PIWIS OEM computer diagnostic system. You can still find a used PST II running around, but it has been superseded by the PIWIS system, which is only available on an annual lease basis from Porsche, starting at about $17K for the first year. Yes, you read that correctly. The Durametric system is an aftermarket tool that starts for around $300 for the “enthusiast” model and is about 80-85% as capable as the PIWIS system.

Seafoam has nearly the same chemical breakdown as nail polish remover; has proven to attack and degrade some seal materials, and is totally unnecessary if you use good quality full synthetic oil and change it at reasonable intervals (5-6.5K miles). Properly maintained M96/87 engines are very clean inside after way over 100K miles. Plus, as another poster correctly noted, if you did have build up inside the engine, breaking it loose is going to cause more problems than it solves, some potentially fatal.

The M96/97 cam followers/lifters are a strange design with very small passageways and tight tolerances; and they often develop “sticking” issues because of the design. The premier Porsche engine builders typically do not use the OEM units in an engine they work on, preferring aftermarket units that do not have the same design or issues.

And I am about 1,000 miles away from your area, but would suggest Jake Raby over at FlatSix in Cleveland, GA, who is probably one of the best M96/97 engine guys on the planet.

[SamirD]

Thank you very much for the informative post. I think a Durametric will be a valuable investment to help diagnose what's going on.

The noise actually went away while driving the car yesterday. I haven't check for the noise while driving before, but I can easily detect it if I crack the driver's side door open while stationary as the sound waves bounce on the door's edge right into the cockpit.

The car has sat for extended time periods so maybe it will take some time for any gunk in the passages to clear up. I only have 2k on this oil change and will be changing the filter soon to give it good filtration.

[Alphaboy1]

Originally Posted by SamirD

Thank you very much for the informative post. I think a Durametric will be a valuable investment to help diagnose what's going on.

The noise actually went away while driving the car yesterday. I haven't check for the noise while driving before, but I can easily detect it if I crack the driver's side door open while stationary as the sound waves bounce on the door's edge right into the cockpit.

The car has sat for extended time periods so maybe it will take some time for any gunk in the passages to clear up. I only have 2k on this oil change and will be changing the filter soon to give it good filtration.

It's amazing how things get better if the car gets driven. My oil drip went away also since I have been driving the car a little more.

[SamirD]

Well, an update after the Porsche is now in daily driver service since every other one of my cars has some sort of issue worse than this one's.

The noise is now persistent after startup and driving. It is almost as loud as the cams when you listen beside the wheel after getting up to operating temperature and driving for 10 minutes or so. When free revving the engine in neutral, it doesn't sound 'smooth' if that makes any sense, like there is a repeative issue of some sort creating a choppiness.

I'm going to need to get a Durametric immediately and check the oil filter for any metal. If there's any metal, I guess dropping the whole oil pan and fishing everything out may help diagnose what's broken.

Pity. Stupid car barely has 27k on it. I suspect something may have been gone wrong when the dealership replaced a leaky RMS under warranty. Especially if it was leaking and contaminated the IMS bearing. This is why I never let anyone touch my cars. Bad mechanics cause more problems than they solve.

[SamirD]

Update on the progress. The car now has almost 33k on it. The noise is intermittantly persistant upon startup, but does go away. The 'smoothness' of the idle may have been a figment of my imagination as a friends new Boxster S sounds the exact same way. Strangely enough, he's got more cam noise than I do. We could hear his over mine when both cars were parked side-by-side and idling.

Durametric coming this week as well as my friend from NC. Both arms on the top broke yesterday, so more work to do...this just never ends...

[ronster]

Originally Posted by Alphaboy1

It's amazing how things get better if the car gets driven. My oil drip went away also since I have been driving the car a little more.

After I finally got around to reading the manual for my '99 Boxster it actually states that the car was designed to be driven on a daily basis.

[SamirD]

Originally Posted by ronster

After I finally got around to reading the manual for my '99 Boxster it actually states that the car was designed to be driven on a daily basis.

Most cars are designed to be driven on a daily basis. Any car sitting regularly for more than two weeks is going to have more issues than one driven regularly. And cars like Ferraris are designed to be driven HARD regularly. They'll have problems even if you baby them.