M96 Motor Article in Excellence

JMatta · 04:00 AM

Has anyone read the article on our motors in the new Excellence? As usual, Jim Pasha (RIP), had a great write up on the M96 line of motors for both the Boxster and 996 autos. He pointed out the inherit weakness of the IMS, though somewhat comforting, he stated the 3.2 ltr motors were the strongest of the lot.

He went on further to discuss the upgrades available from Flat 6 Innovations, which have been discussed here and on other boards by developers Jake Raby and Charles Navarro. I was intrigued by their billet adapter which replaces the plastic oil filter container and allows use of a traditional oil filter. Checked their website www.flat6innovations.com, however, and didn't see it listed.

If my 3.2 ever goes south, I will have them rebuild it to a 3.6. Fortunately, my car just broke 15k miles and I hope I don't need to do this for some time to come. He did stress the importance of frequent oil changes and monitoring operating temps, both oil and coolant; especially those in warm climates.

NOTASIX · 07:42 PM

I am glad that you appreciate the article and our work with the advancement of the M96 engine.

The article was a challenge for the Excellence Staff to compile because Mr. Pasha passed away before the article was 100% completed. Pete Stout and Nick Pon did a great job of putting the finishing touches on the article and they did a great job!

The article wasn't about promoting our companies and thats why you didn't see any reference to our sites or contact info. It was an article about the past, present and future of the M96 engine and what a team of Innovators have done to advance it.

You'll see much more of what we have done and will be doing coming early in 2009. I have added 3,500 more square feet onto my facility to accommodate the M96 engine development, assembly and installation departments.

The editors and Staff at Excellence need to hear your thoughts on the article, if the positive feedback is enough you might see a second part of the article covering performance engines specifically.

Doug&Julie · 11-05-2008, 08:35 AM

I would be curious to hear more about performance engines, but also rebuild options, etc. I've owned Boxsters before and I'm sure I'll own one again. ..or maybe a 996 C4? I love the water cooled cars for their daily driveability, but my budget probably won't let me get into anything "new". So it would be nice to know my options for the next time I get into one. Might help me feel more comfortably about buying a higher mileage one. ..or at least help me plan (budget) for a rebuild...or an upgrade.

Enjoyed the article. Learned a lot. Would recommend it to anyone shopping for an M96 car.

NOTASIX · 11-05-2008, 09:48 AM

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would be curious to hear more about performance engines, but also rebuild options, etc.

No problem. What aspects are you most curious about? I'd be happy to assist you with any questions about the engines.

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I've owned Boxsters before and I'm sure I'll own one again. ..or maybe a 996 C4?

Smae engine, just a tad bigger with some different common ailments.

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I love the water cooled cars for their daily driveability, but my budget probably won't let me get into anything "new". So it would be nice to know my options for the next time I get into one.

Lots of people are in this same position. The older cars are becoming very cheaply priced and can be used for a multitude of applications from AX to DE or just spirited street driving and fun.

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Might help me feel more comfortably about buying a higher mileage one. ..or at least help me plan (budget) for a rebuild...or an upgrade.

Several people are buying older cars with engine issues and getting good deals. They then give us a call and get into a performance engine.

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Enjoyed the article. Learned a lot. Would recommend it to anyone shopping for an M96 car.

Cool, the article is getting good reviews already and just a few subscribers have had a chance to read it at this point... I was impressed with the Excellence staff and how they were willing to tell the truth about the engine, even though that meant that Porsche didn't get an A+ score on their report card.

Thats reality.

Doug&Julie · 11:02 AM

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Originally Posted by NOTASIX

No problem. What aspects are you most curious about? I'd be happy to assist you with any questions about the engines.

I truly have no idea what a rebuild for an M96 engine would cost? I have some idea of what they cost to replace via the dealership. (Two of my Boxsters needed replacement motors...one because of failure...and that one was paid for out of pocket!) But if I buy a car planning to rebuild / upgrade, I don't know how much that would be. And of course I understand it's hard to say because we don't know what would be done with it. But if you could enlighten me on prices, I'd appreciate it.

Do you rebuild any motors on a "preventative" basis? Or do most people come to you with either a need for a fix or a need for more hp? Does it seem silly to buy a "perfectly good car" and bring it to you right away and say "make it last"? ...and then "while you're in there..."

FWIW I'm not a racer. I would either bring you a Boxster with request for more hp (stupid factory...who limits the hp of their sports cars?!?!?!) or a 996 C4 with a request to "make it last".

EDIT: OK, I've been checking out your site for info. Cool stuff!

NOTASIX · 11-05-2008, 12:06 PM

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I truly have no idea what a rebuild for an M96 engine would cost? I have some idea of what they cost to replace via the dealership. (Two of my Boxsters needed replacement motors...one because of failure...and that one was paid for out of pocket!)

Our prices rival the Porsche replacement costs, have a similar warranty but we are updating the entire engine, addressing all the issues like the D chunk cylinder failures, IMS failures and etc. A factory re-man Porsche engine doesn't do this- it's the same engine with the same issues and same limitations.

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But if I buy a car planning to rebuild / upgrade, I don't know how much that would be. And of course I understand it's hard to say because we don't know what would be done with it. But if you could enlighten me on prices, I'd appreciate it.

All our prices are on the webstore of my site. we are updating the site this week with new part offerings and some altered pricing and even more engine options.

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Do you rebuild any motors on a "preventative" basis?

Yes. Wise owners that want to avoid the added costs of repairing an engine after it fails will have us update their current engine BEFORE it breaks.

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Or do most people come to you with either a need for a fix or a need for more hp?

Its mixed.. Some people wait till it fails while others do the updates sooner than later. With these engines there aren't many "fixes", if it has something wrong with it more than likely its going to be severe.

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Does it seem silly to buy a "perfectly good car" and bring it to you right away and say "make it last"? ...and then "while you're in there..."

If you are going to keep the car, thats not silly at all. Its actually what occurs in a lot of instances.

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FWIW I'm not a racer. I would either bring you a Boxster with request for more hp (stupid factory...who limits the hp of their sports cars?!?!?!) or a 996 C4 with a request to "make it last".

Making it last is what the majority of our developments are based upon. Making HP is easy with the M96 but solving the issues of reliability are not.

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EDIT: OK, I've been checking out your site for info. Cool stuff

Glad you found it!

Doug&Julie · 11-05-2008, 12:20 PM

Great stuff Jake. It's good to know we have quality options over a factory replacement if the need arrises. Now I just need to start shopping for that cheap Boxster.

NOTASIX · 11-05-2008, 01:04 PM

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Now I just need to start shopping for that cheap Boxster.

They are easy to find! Even some with failed engines are popping up.

JMatta · 06:10 AM

Jake, let me say we all truly appreciate your knowledge on these "mysterious" engines our cars are blessed with. I've been reading all I can on the various 986 boards (hint) with great interest; not that my '02 S has a motor problem, but just that I want to be educated. My car, after six years of use, has now clocked 15k miles. I religiously change the oil/filter, warm the motor before driving hard (I don't track the car, I leave that up to my 911) and try to pay attention to what could go wrong. I'm glad to hear your opinion that the 3.2 ltr motors are the strongest of the lot and see the least amount of problems. I understand the cylinder strength, but wonder why these don't see the dreaded IMS failures as often as the other displacements?

You must be awfully busy since this acticle came out; great exposure and lots of questions. I agree with the comment on buying a Boxster with a bad motor; timing couldn't be better to get the car you've always wanted for a reasonable price.

Thanks again...

NOTASIX · 11-06-2008, 06:55 AM

Jmatta, Thanks for your post. I am glad to hear that you appreciate your car enough to fheed warnings and perform preventive maintenance.

The 3.2 engines do seem to be the best overall, but they still experience cylinder failures and IMS failures as well. The cylinders are the strongest of any M96 but the IMS is nothing special and they do fail from time time.

The article has increased oir inquiries tremendously as people had no idea that these options were available previously. Our main goal is to enable local shops to work with the M96 engine through our training program, support, specialty tools and the ability to buy ready to assemble engine "kits" for the most popular stock and performance engines.

We can only build so many engines here, so enabling others to use our technology is key.

Doug&Julie · 11-06-2008, 08:41 AM

So for complete engine purchases, do you do some kind of exchange? When my second Boxster blew it's motor, my indi mechanic wanted to put in a 3.4 996 motor (with 9k miles), partly because he had one but also because he hadn't done that yet and wanted to learn. He would likely be doing the same if / when I get my next Boxster. But surely there's some value to an "old" engine? Where do you usually find yours for rebuild?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer all these questions! Very informative. (..and really getting the wheels in my mind spinning!)

NOTASIX · 11-06-2008, 08:58 AM

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So for complete engine purchases, do you do some kind of exchange?

There are multiple choices.. Either you can swap your engine for one of ours that is already built up, or we can base the new engine from your existing engine. This is what we prefer when purchasers have their car shipped to our facility for the work to be done.

These options are also dependant upon the year of your car and the engine you wish to install. Our biggest challenges are the guys that have early cars but want a3.4, 3.6 or 3.8 Performance engine. At that level those purchasers have to buy the new engine, pay us an upcharge for the later model core engine and then they face the conversion challenges associated with putting the newer model engine into their earlier car.

So, we handle each instance dependent upon the desires of the purchaser and the year of their car.

When my second Boxster blew it's motor, my indi mechanic wanted to put in a 3.4 996 motor (with 9k miles), partly because he had one but also because he hadn't done that yet and wanted to learn. He would likely be doing the same if / when I get my next Boxster. But surely there's some value to an "old" engine? Where do you usually find yours for rebuild?
>>>>we source them all over the country. I have connections at wrecking yards and etc. No one else wants to buy broken M96 engines because they can't repair them and most can't re-assemble them. Due to this we find good deals on cores and pass them on in many instances.

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Thanks again for taking the time to answer all these questions! Very informative. (..and really getting the wheels in my mind spinning!)

Not a problem. These engines are filled with mystery and answering questions is part of my obligation.

JMatta · 11-06-2008, 10:24 AM

Jake,

Not to take your time with a game of a thousand questions, but as a 3.2 owner, is there more I should be doing to take care of my motor? I read with interest your comments on how driver usage affects longevity and I don't baby mine (my 18 yo son also starting some autocrossing with the car this year); however, I don't tend to overstress it, either.

I suggest everyone that reads these posts lobby "Excellence" to do some follow up articles. I know Pete Stout is a frequent vistor on Pelican and hopefully we can get his attention through this site and sending emails to the magazine directly.

Again, your time and knowledge is greatly appreciated.

NOTASIX · 11-06-2008, 12:20 PM

Jake,

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Not to take your time with a game of a thousand questions, but as a 3.2 owner, is there more I should be doing to take care of my motor?

Cut the oil service intervals that Porsche recommends in half... Upgrade to our oil filter housing and upgraded filter and thats really about it.

We have done significant testing with our test car in regard to oil service intervals and I have monitored the points that fuel and coolant intrusion begin to degrade the oil and thats about 1/2 the Porsche service interval.

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I read with interest your comments on how driver usage affects longevity and I don't baby mine (my 18 yo son also starting some autocrossing with the car this year); however, I don't tend to overstress it, either.

Don't abuse the engine but drive it as hard as you want. These engines like to rev and they hate to lug around! I always keep my revs above 2,800 and that makes a big difference in engine temps in my experience.

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I suggest everyone that reads these posts lobby "Excellence" to do some follow up articles. I know Pete Stout is a frequent vistor on Pelican and hopefully we can get his attention through this site and sending emails to the magazine directly.

I agree. Pete is a great guy and is totally devoted to all things Porsche and that includes making people more aware of their options as well as discussing the root of issues.

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Again, your time and knowledge is greatly appreciated.

Not a problem. Knowledge is Power!

JMatta · 01:32 PM

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Originally Posted by NOTASIX

Cut the oil service intervals that Porsche recommends in half... Upgrade to our oil filter housing and upgraded filter and thats really about it.

I change my oil about every 2k to 2.5k miles; way under recommended interval. I was intrigued by the updated filter adapter, etc., but couldn't locate it on the Flat 6 website...any pointers?

Thanks again,

NOTASIX · 11-06-2008, 01:34 PM

Thats exceptional service intervals!!!

The filter adaptor is 119.00 and will be on the site when we upload the new changes over the weekend :-)

Lots will be added very soon!

Doug&Julie · 11-06-2008, 02:11 PM

Jake, have you found any better overall reliability in the 987/997 motors over the 986/996? ..or is it still too early to tell?

NOTASIX · 11-06-2008, 06:55 PM

We have not began development of the M97 engines as of yet.. They sill have some issues and others will pop up as they add miles.

All these engines suffer from Porsche's accounting department.

LUCKe27 · 11-07-2008, 01:04 PM

Jake, Here is my question. I have been looking at a '00 Boxster S as a daily driver option (so that I don't drive my '89 911 every day). The car has less than 40k miles and seems to be in good shape. I think I can get it for less than $18k. Since these cars have the dreaded IMS issues, am I better off searching around for a car with a blown engine and putting one of your engines in it? If so, how would I go about finding one of those? If you saw a Boxster S , for example, with a blow engine in your area, it would certainly save $$ on the shipping back and forth to Atlanta. Just thinking out loud.

I would be pretty miffed if I spent $18k and had to turn around a spend a similar amount from a blown engine. Best, Kevin

NOTASIX · 11-07-2008, 01:10 PM

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Jake, Here is my question. I have been looking at a '00 Boxster S as a daily driver option (so that I don't drive my '89 911 every day). The car has less than 40k miles and seems to be in good shape. I think I can get it for less than $18k.

Sounds like a good deal.

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Since these cars have the dreaded IMS issues, am I better off searching around for a car with a blown engine and putting one of your engines in it?

If you want a car to keep for many years with the engine issues addressed? Yes.

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If so, how would I go about finding one of those? If you saw a Boxster S , for example, with a blow engine in your area, it would certainly save $$ on the shipping back and forth to Atlanta. Just thinking out loud.

This has been done already.. Its a viable avenue to explore for sure as we can accept the car here at the shop then do our engine work 9and any other upgrades you may want) and then ship it to you fully tuned and field tested for a couple hundred miles.

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I would be pretty miffed if I spent $18k and had to turn around a spend a similar amount from a blown engine. Best, Kevin

yep and you don't want to know how often thats been occurring!