This looks BAD

[59coupe]

This morning, on my way to the office. Came to a stop, began to accelerate away, engine stumbles then dies. I coasted to a stop off of the road and hit the warning flashers. Attempted to start, doesn't want to turn over, engine turns very slowly. Got it towed to the house and hooked up the Durametric, fault codes: P1341, P1325, P0343, P1397, P0102. Drained the oil and cut open the filter, many small shiny bits, dropped the oil pan, many more small shiny bits and small chunks of brown plastic looking material.

02 Boxster S
102,000 miles
Fresh clutch
L&N IMS bearing replaced at 86K

May be catastrophic, is this the end?

Where should I go next?

cam to cam tensioners?

Any advice from the pros is welcome.

[mikefocke]

Where do you want to end up and what is your spending limit to do it?

Have you tested the shiny bits and are they are ferrous...magnet picks em up? Or are they aluminum?

The problem you have is the bits are scattered through your engine and anything short of a total rebuild which involves total disassembly and cleaning all the passages means you risk damage when a stray bit lodges in the wrong place and you can't get cooling/lubing oil to a part you really care about and you destroy the engine again.

So some options come to mind.

Part out the car by selling it to a wrecking yard that specializes in Porsches.

Used engine, perhaps even a 996 engine from the same era car from a wrecker. You'll find a list of wrecking yards on my web site.

Someone who really really knows these engines and how to rebuild them with better than new parts. Some of them even have purchased engines out of wrecks and have mildly upgraded critical pieces like the IMS and can sell em to you for somewhere between a wrecker engine and a total rebuild. Cause if you go the total rebuild route, you might as well use improved parts and the cost will be more than your car is worth from a financial perspective, maybe not from an emotional one. Some of them have shipping connections so you don't have to even arrange that or worry where they are located. Some of them even buy cars like yours.

If you go any variation of the latter route, check the guy's reputation six ways from Sunday. Ask here.

[59coupe]

Thanks Mike,
Your write up on "what to do" is helpful in clarifying my thinking.
The shiny bits appear to be mostly ferrous, I am assuming this makes the scenario even worse.
To this day the best labor saving device is money. I may have to do the labor myself.

[BYprodriver]

59coupe your trouble codes indicate trouble with your camshaft timing. This calls into question the quality of the IMSB replacement procedure. The size of metal pieces found would help determine what has occured. Post pictures of filter &/or metallic particles with a coin etc. for size reference. I'm guessing BEST case senario the VarioCam tensioner wear pads have worn enough to allow the cam chains to wander off track. Obiously do not try to start the engine any more. You may want to tell your IMSB installer what has happened.

[thom4782]

If you tear the engine down at some point, can you let us know what failed. Failures in LN IMS retrofits are almost unheard of.

[mikefocke]

If something else in the engine goes and dumps debris into the oil then the current generation LN bearing can receive some small pieces of debris which accelerate wear and suffer collateral damage. Think throwing sand into a gearbox. It isn't the true cause of the failure but on teardown it can be seen to have failed. Doesn't happen often but can.

This is true of any IMS bearing that isn't running on filtered oil delivered under pressure or that isn't successfully sealed from contamination from the crankcase oil. And if the IMS doesn't get you the other oiled surfaces will.

[59coupe]

Well, I did the L&N IMS bearing replacement myself so consulting the installer is a matter of course. I had little problem with the install at the time, everything went fairly smooth, when it didn't, I consulted here to insure proper procedure. Uploading photos is problematic for me as I am out in the country and my upload speed is dismal. The largest pieces of metal are slivers, approximately 3mm in length and less than 1mm in thickness. The smallest are glitter size in the oil filter. Included with the material in the pan is small pieces of brown plastic, leading me to believe the Variocam tensioner, a chain tensioner or a chain has failed.

16,000 miles with no issues on the IMS install and I certainly don't want to consider that the mechanic is a dimwit; this plus the codes may be why I am leaning toward the Variocam tensioner diagnosis.

I will keep folks updated as I progress,

I put my first love, "Der Zeitgeist" on the ebay to free up funds (1971 BMW 2002ti) once it sells, my crossing over to the Dark Side will be complete.

[BYprodriver]

OK, didn't know you are mechanically inclined. I would turn the engine over manually to lock it at TDC & remove the cam plugs to check cam timing. See if the timing has changed since you did the IMSB. The VarioCam wear pads should be replaced & you may have a bad cam position sensor.

[59coupe]

Ok folks, finally circling back around, I have been dealing with other family members vehicles up until yesterday. I also spent a fair amount of time prepping the OR (cleaning the garage.) Car is in the air, gearbox pulled, clutch and flywheel as well. I have yet to lock the cams or engine, loosen the tensioners or pull the cover off of the IMS. There is an issue with the cover in that one of the bolts has backed out approximately 2mm however, it does not appear to be the cause of any problem. There is some minor oil seepage at this location.

I am leaning towards pulling the engine and putting it on the stand, cleaning and diagnosing the problem. With the brown plastic in the oil pan and one larger piece of plastic stuck in the oil return this seems to be prudent. Also, it seems like a great excuse to buy some more tools.

BYprodriver, you seem to suggest that if the timing is not off, the VarioCam wear pads could be replaced without pulling the engine. What of the material which may be spread throughout the engine? This would be MUCH less work. Have you seen this done? Since I have yet to check the timing, it is just a question.

This one is for all of us DIY guys, what is the appropriate amount of clearance to remove the engine. In other words, how tall should your jack stands be?

What have others done when it comes to jacking the engine from and to the engine bay, jack adapter? Other device? Blocks of wood and strong arm tactics?

I will try and jump back in next weekend, lock the engine at TDC, lock the cams, loosen the tensioners and remove the IMS cover. Before a complete engine removal and overhaul, are there any other considerations which I am over looking, up fixin der Porsche is expensive and time consuming.
Best Regards, "Z"

[BYprodriver]

BYprodriver, you seem to suggest that if the timing is not off, the VarioCam wear pads could be replaced without pulling the engine. What of the material which may be spread throughout the engine? This would be MUCH less work. Have you seen this done? Since I have yet to check the timing, it is just a question.

This one is for all of us DIY guys, what is the appropriate amount of clearance to remove the engine. In other words, how tall should your jack stands be?

What have others done when it comes to jacking the engine from and to the engine bay, jack adapter? Other device? Blocks of wood and strong arm tactics?

I will try and jump back in next weekend, lock the engine at TDC, lock the cams, loosen the tensioners and remove the IMS cover. Before a complete engine removal and overhaul, are there any other considerations which I am over looking, up fixin der Porsche is expensive and time consuming.
Best Regards, "Z"[/QUOTE]

"Z" Regardless of the cam timing you can replace the cam chain wear pads with the engine in the car since you have to remove all 4 cams, & with 102K miles there is no doubt the pads need to be replaced with the new & improved parts. Setting the engine at TDC & pulling the green cam plugs you can see if the cam timing is OK or not & give a clue as to what happened to the engine. Pic's of the debris in the filter & housing will help also. Debris size helps determine possible damage.

[59coupe]

BYprodriver, thanks for the response. I will take some photos, resize them and try and upload. What you describe sounds much easier with the engine on a stand. I have been lookinng around for a solution and came up with this:

Transmission Jack - 450 Lb. Capacity

Any thoughts on this piece? How much does the engine weigh? This appears to be a possible solution to lowering the engine and putting it back into place. Also, with the apparently low draft of the unit, one might be able to roll the engine out and around without to much effort.

[Rot 911]

I too am curious to see the debris. If it was an IMS failure I would be very hesitant to try and rebuild that engine.

[59coupe]

Well, more decisions to make. I attempted to set the engine at TDC, crank has too much resistance. Just to be certain I wasn't feeling weak today I pulled the plugs, still too much resistance. I fear valves are hitting pistons.

Knowing Mr. Raby doesn't like to get them disassembled, I stopped and dropped him a line. I have never done business with him? Reading around the forum I see Byprodriver took his rebuild class. Could you please drop me a PM?

So decision time;
Flat6Innovations Stage 1?
Sell as is?
Pull it apart and rebuild myself?
Part it out?

I do not have a lot of experience with engine building so my learning curve would be steep and time consuming. Dropping another engine in I can handle.

Thoughts and opinions being solicited.

[Chuck W.]

Man, the answers you are looking for are hard ones. It is like asking if you should stay with your wife. You have lots of options and sound like you have a good handle on them. If I had your talents, and I don't, I would make a long term project out of it and do it myself. If you don't have the time but have the funds, I would ship it off to Flat6Innovations for a rebuild.

I look forward to you decision. Good luck.

[Meirschwartz]

This way or the other, you will have to drop the engine.
Once it is out of the car, remove the cam covers, and the 2 oil pumps.
It will give you a better point of view of what is wrong.
You can always put them back on and send it to flat6 or BYprodriver.
Good luck.

[59coupe]

Well, here is my thought process:

The event took place at approximately 30 mph under acceleration (usually my first acceleration run of the day during my commute.) I do not suspect a slipped sleeve or D-chunk as there was no water in the oil and no oil in the water. This points to something in the timing process, cam wear pad/tensioner, chain tensioner or IMS. Because the engine will not spin, I suspect valves are hitting pistons, best case scenario is head work, valves and guides, etc. How could one be certain con rods and pistons are within spec without a total tear down? You could even possibly bend a crank in this scenario.

Rebuilding myself is a crap shoot, no warranty, learning curve, etc. let's face it this is not dads' old oil slinger. Any corners cut or mistakes may result in a major waste of funds. As mikefocke said; anything short of a total tear down is risky.

Pulling the engine and doing any further diagnosis in my mind is pointless until I have had a conversation with Jake Raby or Byprodriver. Without knowing the costs associated with each option I am at a stand still.

I did manage to score a hydraulic table, this seems to be the option most DIY folks are using to remove the engine. I may start another thread on jackstands, it would be nice to know which is best suited height wise for engine removal.

Thanks for your opinions, many perspectives make for good decisions.

[Lyle.woodard]

I went with Jake and flat 6 enterprises. I was extremely pleased with the work, and my 3.2 liter engine is now a 3.6 liter. Assuming your engine is rebuildable, costs are not that much more than buying a Porsche crate engine with all the problems still there. I know he will rebuild just an engine for you, but warrantee is better if you ship the entire car and have his crew do the R&R.

Without a class, and an investment in some special tools you are not likely to be successful doing the job yourself, this engine involves some special techniques. Jake does teach people how to do it right, with a formal classroom and hands on program. I hope to be able to take his class when I stop working for other people.

A technique within your reach is to buy a low mileage used engine, do the IMS bearing yourself, and install it yourself.

[NOTASIX]

We are always intrigued with occurrences like yours. The only way we warranty any of our work is to receive the entire vehicle so it can be treated to all of our regimens and tested my way for a couple hundred miles.

We have a truck heading east with west coast cars the second week of February, shipping is easy.

[59coupe]

OK, an update for those interested. I scored a junk yard engine with 78k from a roll over and kept the core. I will investigate what happened there later.

Jake Raby's Boxster "Boot Camp" sounds like the way to go for those that are not very DIY or intend to keep their cars forever. But as Jake will tell you himself, it makes no financial sense as it is likely to double your investment. The additional years of enjoyment is the only justification I could come up with, the money, well not so much.

BYprodriver can clearly do the build as well and while less expensive than a full blown "Boot Camp" it will still be expensive. I appreciate the time and effort that goes into such a build and may consider it in the future.

Given the expense of the two options listed above, I opted for the engine out of a wrecked car and got a 6 month warranty with it. I will report on this as the engine is placed into service. Currently, I am moving through the install, some of which is difficult (clamp on power steering hose, clamp on oil filler hose) if anyone has any "tricks" or trade craft they would like to share in properly placing these clamps I would appreciate this advice. Folks, don't be too aggressive with the dipstick tube, snapped mine in half. Other than the mentioned issues, things seem to be moving along. I did discover a bad motor mount bushing, make sure to inspect this piece, Wayne says they quite often fail and mine was close to complete failure.

Anyone who is contemplating taking on this challenge should know that you will need a full 36 inches of clearance to remove the engine. I will not discuss what I did to get the necessary clearance because it was about as unsafe as one can get in their garage!

If you are considering the purchase of jack stands, keep this in mind, it may make you install safer.

Well, back to the garage but I will post up as things progress.

Best Regards,

"Z"

[59coupe]

OK, for those interested, engine in and running smooth. Burping the coolant system has been time consuming. I was scared I had a blown head gasket on this junkyard engine for a while! That would not have been cool.
For those interested in getting those clamps on properly what I ended up doing is placing a pair of needle nose vise grips through the wiring loom, adjusting them to the point where the clamp would ride between the bevels of the hose, this way it did not slip beyond its' value or where it is supposed to ride. I did roughly the same for the power steering pump return hose.
I will report on what happened to the original engine once I tear into it, until then, Keep the Faith.
Best Regards, "Z"

Oh yeah, and a shout out to the folks at Pelican Parts for getting all those parts to me quickly!