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ghtaboma's Avatar
 
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IMS "Eternal Fix", by EPS

Anyone try , or hear of this? Sold by Vertex Auto on Ebay, for $525.00
Old 12-29-2014, 09:28 AM
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Seen the marketing hype before. Haven't seen any postings from real P-car car owners who used one.

Given the difficulty proving that something like this actually works, few of the creators of such products have proven the validity of their claims with enough cars driven for enough miles over enough years to have any statistical validity.

There are a few kits where enough users have had enough installed on their cars for enough time that you can get a feel about how they will work. You'd be better off sticking with those I'd think.

Lots depends on the condition of your engine before installation and the skill of the installer.
Old 12-29-2014, 09:59 AM
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Looks like a good idea, but like the last guy says, until someone tries it and puts some serious miles on one it's anyone's guess. I personally like the one called IMS Solution.
Old 12-29-2014, 05:45 PM
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Hi There.

Went threw a Part Supplier in Florida - This is what he recommended.

Stated he has sold many and have had no complaints.

944online Your Place For Porsche 944 Parts And 944 Tools. - his name was Steve.

Kit came with the oiling system, Puller and Install tool.

Only missing part was the oil pump cover O-Ring - If doing this kit make sure to order one ahead of time.

Fired up car after install and no issues - have taken car out for a few KMs now and no issues. Still working out other issues with car and it is winter up here so KMs are limited.

From what I seen I would not hesitate to order this again if I was to do another IMS in a different vehicle. Really looks like a good product.

All I can report for now.

Duezzer
Old 12-29-2014, 10:26 PM
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Report back when there are a million miles on such a product. A sample quantity 1 and only "for a few KMs" tells us little. After all, the original Porsche bearings seemed fine based on their test mules that get 100k miles in lab and street testings and they ran more than a few of them. Lets see lots of samples getting to 30-50k miles and we will know something then.

Ever notice how all these kits are advertised with "this is the best" hype. Reminds me of the infomercials on TV.
Old 12-30-2014, 08:03 AM
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I stated that I had little miles so far on this product. Said I liked the look of the product.
Never said this was the bee's knees of all products.
I will post if I have or don't have any issues once the vehicle gets more miles on it
The reason I put 944Online.com link info was so the inquiring person could check with the supplier I used and see if they had heard anything back about the product - Good or Bad.

Have a fairly nice day.
Old 12-30-2014, 11:26 AM
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Schnell Gelb
 
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Before you select a roller bearing IMS ,I suggest you consider the rather suspect method they use acquire a pressure feed to lubricate the bearing. They weaken an already suspect part- the oil pump drive shaft.
Pedos Technofix DOF oil feed is better imho.
TechnoFix DOF
The ex-Timken bearing expert(Bob?) who offers advice on the IMSB issue recommends against roller bearings in general for the IMSB replacement.He suggests ball bearing. So does Jake/Charles:
Roller Bearings
An issue that may affect your decision is the 1 row/2 row original bearing .Which do you have?
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Old 12-30-2014, 01:50 PM
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I just like Pedros stuff, page included, so I'd go with his
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Old 12-30-2014, 04:44 PM
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Schnell Gelb
 
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One anxiety I have about IMSB oil-feed systems is the very,very small size of the oil feed hole in the IMS cover plate.Very easy for a tiny amount of debris/sealer to completely plug that hole. But the same issue/size afflicts the piston squirters .
Asfaik, the oil hole size in the DOF was reduced during development to get the correct volume of oil to the IMS. An oil 'bath' for the IMSB might be better but is not(yet) available. The other(expensive) alternative is a plain bearing IMS retrofit.
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Old 12-31-2014, 08:58 AM
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The potential to clog may be one of the reasons why the oil feed on Flat6's plain bearing kit ("The Solution") is from the just filtered oil as opposed to circulated oil.
Old 12-31-2014, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scnell Gelb View Post
An oil 'bath' for the IMSB might be better but is not(yet) available. The other(expensive) alternative is a plain bearing IMS retrofit.
The IMS is located within the area of the integrated dry sump (i.e. wet sump), so it's already in an oil bath.
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Old 12-31-2014, 01:19 PM
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I suggest a plain bearing. Removing 11 components from the IMSB assembly is just one of the benefits.
Old 12-31-2014, 02:22 PM
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Consider this
Old 01-01-2015, 01:17 PM
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Check TunerRS in florida, they build race cars and use a pretty good IMS replacement.
Porsche also recommends rollers bearings.
Ever heard of oil starvation?
Another solution is to install an oil plate extender, either 0.5 quart OR 2 quart.
Old 01-04-2015, 04:20 AM
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Who at Porsche recommends "rollers (sic) bearings"?

"Oil plate extender"? "Oil starvation"? The IMS isn't lubed by design via oil in the stock configuration.

LN's ball bearing kits are. Flat6's flat bearing kit is. The kit from TunersRS is. None uses any "extenders".
Old 01-04-2015, 04:35 PM
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When people choose a IMSB replacement bearing, they are placing a $10K bet that the odds of the 'chosen' design failing are extremely small.

For me, the choice is simple...the LN Engineering products have demonstrated their longevity over thousands of installations and thousands of miles. Other designs claim they are better, but until they can factually demonstrate their products actually extend engine operating lifetimes beyond what LN has proven on the street, it's just marketing puffery.
Old 01-04-2015, 05:23 PM
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Talking Bearing facts

I had several training seminars on bearings and was a "predictive maintenance" technician, primarily predicting when printing press bearings were nearing failure (wear out). I used computer vibration tracking equipment, but found quickly that an electronic stethoscope and common hearing could easily do the same analysis. Conrad (ball) bearings wear out due to material fatigue, not due to lack of lubrication. Steel balls are actually flexing a tiny bit under pressure much like a basketball if you push on it while rolling on the floor. Eventually, the metal can't return to the round smooth shape and tiny pieces flake off. This is called spalling. Once it begins, it will just get worse. If you examine a failed IMS bearing, and I have, one side (the pressure bearing side) of the inner race will be rough as that is the area of failure. The balls will all be rough and the balls wear out the ball cage which results in catastrophic failure.
Query me this, if oil gets by the seals and washes the grease out as many people have theorized, why would the oil stop getting inside the bearing after the grease is gone?
I think the factory would have used a different type bearing if they thought it would have lasted longer than the ball bearing. In this engine design, the pressure is always on one side of the inner race or shaft. A con rod or main bearing has the pressure around the full circumference of the oil coated shaft and the pressure is not constantly on one spot. I'm waiting to see the long term service of the "eternal fixes" some of the shops are selling.
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Old 01-08-2015, 07:21 AM
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I queried EPS about the number of installs and failures a couple months back when exploring options.

They responded that they have had over 800 installs in the past two years with zero failures. So it's not millions of miles and hey it could be all lies, right?

Vertex auto installs them in all of their rebuilt engines they sell. Logic says that if they were eating failed engines they would certainly switch to something else.

Also, given the nature of internet whiners, if there had been EPS failures there WOULD be someone on some forum talking about their failure. There aren't any that I've found. Zero. I welcome the corrections because I'd like to read them.

It would be hard to install a worse bearing than the factory did, so anything is an improvement, and I suspect the reason why failures of other options are few (including the Pelican single row into a two row car). Heck there's plenty of people shouting that the bearing problem is just being made up by people selling bearings. I'm not, but I've had a car that has had its a** sticking up in the air for coming up on three months.

Some of us don't have the option of the LN plain bearing solution since we have two row bearings (that supposedly don't fail in any numbers, yet mine and many others are junk).

Look I totally respect the work of Jake Raby and Charles N. If I had a single row car I would pony up for the plain bearing solution. Done. It's not an option for me. It's either stock (no), Pelican single row (no), EPS roller or LN ceramic two row.

EPS doesn't seem to have a presence on the forums to defend their products. I can confirm that they are not a bunch of idiots. If you own a Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg (I do) or Audi Q7 you may already know of them because they developed a solution to the random failures of the drive shaft support bearing (which requires shaft removal, bearing press and balancing of the finished shaft) common to the types. Instead of $1200-$1400 for a repair you crawl under your car with their $300 kit and are done worrying about it. Even if their kit wasn't a permanent solution it would be way easier and cheaper than the factory route.

Thrust loads:
I do tolerance stack ups and load paths for a living, and I'm getting up there in age. If I had $10 for every time my employer said "yeah we looked at that and decided it wasn't a good idea" I'd own a brand new 981 free and clear. In GTS trim, thank you. Red.

That article linked to about why a roller bearing isn't a great option acknowledges that it has a higher radial load capacity. The criticism of thrust load is actually something addressed with the EPS design.

As long as the inner and outer races are contained between the EPS "thrust control" washer and the IMSB cover with less slop than the rollers have then the bearing rollers themselves will never see thrust loads. I'd have to look closer at the design (hopefully with parts in my hand) to confirm that detail. If they didn't do it that way then all bets are off.

The EPS bearing does not require you to punch the hole and run their oil feed concept, but they do recommend it. Without their oil feed system it is a splash bearing with no grease seals, exactly like the LN ceramic bearing and exactly like LN used to have people do to factory bearings before developing their line of products. And, I'll point out, it was an improvement on the factory version.

I am quite sure I can find a post less than two weeks old where Jake states, as if tired of repeating himself, that the IMS bearings do NOT fail because of lack of lubrication - they fail from load. That would seem to imply that splash lube is just fine for balls/rollers and that we should just focus on that load part. It also supports the claims of makers of the DOF and the EPS roller that a plugged up oil feed won't result in bearing failure, it just reverts to splash oil.

For anyone not clear on how the EPS pressure lube system works, or how the other ones work here's my shade tree version:

The IMS bearing which fails is in the opposite end of the IMS shaft from the oil pump. The oil pump for the M96 is actually driven off the non ball bearing end of the IMS shaft, by using a hex shaft (picture a segment of about a 6mm allen wrench). That same end of the shaft is a plain bearing, just like your main bearings, rod bearings of nearly any vehicle for the past 100 years, and the LN/Flat6 "solution" - except that there is no replaceable bearing.

That plain bearing end of the shaft actually rides in the (soft aluminum) oil pump housing of the M96, and gets lube about as quickly as possible when the oil pump comes on line when you start the car.
The lube oil travels as a "controlled leak" around the spot where the hex shaft comes into the oil pump to drive the gears, to flood that plain bearing on the IMS. Excess oil is driven into the crankcase where it drains to the sump.

What EPS does (and I doubt they invented the idea) is to have you poke a very specific hole with a supplied punch, into the hole where that hex shaft runs. Then they replace the hex shaft with one that has a groove along the side. This causes some (again, a theoretically controlled amount) of the same immediate oil supply that the plain end gets, into the fat, hollow IMS shaft where it eventually finds its way to the opposite end, flowing through the roller bearing and then out a small groove to again drain to the crank case.

Potential problems with this method:
Hole too big. I think first up is mostly the issue with the deft touch of the person poking that hole in the blind end of the IMS shaft. Hole too big and you probably just removed that which keeps the hex shaft from just traveling back (in our 986 or forward in 996 land) and falling inside the IMS. What a riot that would be. No oil pressure, and 100% tear down needed to rectify.

The hex shaft itself. It is known that oil pump drive shaft (the hex thing) is one of the critical modes of failure for the M96. I'm going to admit that I don't know why it fails. It doesn't have that hard of a job other than pumping oil. So either it is a bit feeble (undersize or poor choice of material specification) when oil is cold and thick, or it just shears off when a piece of FOD finds its way into the pump and sticks between the gears. Or maybe there is some harmonic vibration, space aliens, or what have you.

Bottom line, detractors from the punch/grooved shaft option argue that the oil pump shaft is already a problem and that putting a groove in it will make it even weaker, but also probably assume that EPS has done nothing to improve the shaft strength. That may or may not be true, but is worth the question. I will state that it is absolutely possible to create a hex shaft strong enough to allow the oil pump to chew bottle caps if necessary. The one LN sells probably would.

Before moving on, I'm going to say that so far I'm a fan of the roller but not as dedicated to the oil pump modification as outlined by EPS.

The LN oil feed is only available on the single row IMS Solution. Yep, filtered oil. I've recently taken the time to follow the path of oil in the M96 engine. Wow. Okay so it gets sucked out of the oil pan by the oil pump. Some small amount gets leaked to the plain end of the IMS, the rest gets rammed through the oil filter, then up through the oil cooler. The rest of the path, well that's a scream. More on that in a minute.

Bottom line, yes the LN Solution does get filtered (but not recently cooled) oil in what ever the proprietary feed amount is, and it gets fed to the "Solution" bearing in the troubled end of the IMS. End of discussion since that oil feed method is only available to users of the "Solution" and not any of us ball/roller types.

Next up is the DOF (So far as I know Pedro sells the TuneRS system and they are one and the same - just like Vertex sells the EPS roller). The DOF system takes the oil from out on a valve cover.

As mentioned, I recently took it upon myself to understand the path of oil flow in the M96, mostly because I saw a post from Jake that said the commonly published diagram doesn't accurately represent oil flow (and because I'm stuck waiting for parts/tools to show up so I can assemble). I have to admit that by the time I followed the path of oil out to the cam shafts I had one of those jaw dropping, "Wait. What?" moments.

It seems to me that there isn't a whole lot of oil pressure left (remember there are losses of pressure fed oil all along the way) by the time it gets to the valve covers, which are not just metal covers in the M96 but have oil passages and are also half of the cam shaft bearings.

The spot where the DOF takes the oil is also where oil is forced from the cam shaft journal into the hollow cam shaft so that it travels out to lubricate the very ends of the cams opposite the cam gears. So taking oil from that spot could leave that end of the cam a little lacking for lube oil. Could. Plenty of people are happy with their DOF installations. I'm not going to comment further on them.

Regadless of DOF, EPS or LN oil feed methods the basics of where they get the oil from and in what amounts are where they will be successful or fall on their swords.

I personally welcome all the options to the market.
Old 01-16-2015, 01:07 PM
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Ims Eternal fix

This is a most interesting response from a real thinking man! Thanks.
Old 01-21-2015, 09:50 AM
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Thanks for taking the time to add to the discussion - particularly because of your expertise in bearings/loads.
Intuitively many of us liked the roller bearing solution for the IMS but were warned off by the ex-Timken fellow Ed who occasionally contributes.
You mention the DOF oil supply source/pressure loss to camshaft bearings as a problem. If that source was abandoned & the oil supply came from the same source that LN use for their plain bearing Solution, would that help in your view? I ask because that may be an easy mod for those running DOF to make.But did you realise Pedro reduced the diameter of the oil feed in the IMS cover plate? It was a large reduction in flow rate.
I have an LN chromolly driveshaft as an upgrade and share your confusion about why a mild steel shaft is inadequate. Looking at the construction of the oil pump ,you would think that was the weak link ,not the steel drive shaft.
In your study of the oil circulation system, did you ever figure out why/where the Factory diagram is wrong ? Many of us would love to know !
Thanks again for your contribution.
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Last edited by Scnell Gelb; 01-21-2015 at 06:10 PM..
Old 01-21-2015, 06:05 PM
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