1972 911e - Just got the pics

[tiwebber]

Hi everyone, with alot of helpful advice from members (thank kenikh) I abandonded a 1971 911e for sale in Vancouver BC. I also found another one for sale (1972) in Victoria BC (where I live). I am going to check it out tommorow or Sunday. They are asking approx $24,000 USD. I'll find out more this weekend but wanted to see if anyone knows about this car or has a feeling about its value (at 24,000usd).

Details from Seller:
VIN # 911220749,
Engine # 6221174 911.52,
Transmission # 32708,
Sepia Brown # 7474.
Interior brown leatherette houndstooth # 21/26

47,800 original miles, original paint, concours car never driven in rain, just tuned up. New Michelin pilots 205/60/15's. Period Becker Mexico radio, period houndstooth Recaros, Momo Jackie Stewart wheel. Tough to find a nicer original 911.

Here's some pics.

[bigchillcar]

never driven in rain? looks wet to me! okay, so it just got washed.. i see turbo valve covers. was the stewart wheel a '72 option? others will know more about the value..i can say that the '72 is very popular on this board. sepia brown, however, isn't so popular. hard to say..good-looking car..it may fetch it.
ryan

[javadog]

That appears to be a nice car, although I'd suggest you take the information given by the seller with a grain of salt, particularly if he is not the original owner. A "concours car" it is not, unless he means a local car club sort of thing. Likewise, I disagree that it has never been driven in the rain. Unless, of course, he drove it in snow a lot.

I'd look at the records to be sure that the low mileage can be substantiated. There are things about it that make me feel that the mileage could be higher.

Check and see if the carpet on the backs of the rear seats matches the rest of the carpet. Ask if he still has the original seats and steering wheel.

Good luck,

JR

[GaryR]

Agree with JR, this looks to be a fairly good example but NOT concours in any way/shape/form! Could be a lot of hidden rust, did you notice that (in the upside down picture) the A-Arms and other parts have suface rust on them -- Never driven in rain/snow??

[berettafan]

i'm in the very early stages of looking for a 69 - 72 E myself and if i saw the word 'concours' attached to those pics i'd be leary.

[fryardds]

Looks like it could be a very nice car. Of course, check for rust. A car from that area is bound to have some in the bottom of the doors, front trunk, front fenders, etc. If it is rust free (the surface rust on the suspension is no big deal) and the mileage is documented the price is right for that type of car inspite of the Sepia Brown color (which is starting to grow on me BTW).

The VIN and engine #s look good. The transmission # doesn't make sense but it is probably a 915/02 which is the 5-speed. If the owner does have the original seats that is big plus especially if they have Hound's tooth inserts. The mirrors are wrong and there should be no right side one present. The paint in the engine compartment is original for sure. I also see the tensioner update has been done. Keep us posted.

[jluetjen]

BTW, $24K US sounds like "S" money to me, not nice "E" money. A very nice 2.4E (which this may be) is most likely in the teens. Nice drivers are like $10K-low teens. Reasonable drivers can be found for less then $10K without too much trouble.

The seller's opening price sounds a little optimistic.

For comparision -- Turbo's can be found with a little bit of effort for that sort of money.

BTW -- Is that steering wheel even mounted straight???

[304065]

It looks original and complete. H4s, Carrera tensioners and turbo valve covers are nice additions. The one photo of the a-arm does show some rust, I would conduct a thorough underbody inspection if I were buying it. . . "thorough" to me means spending one hour minimum poking the underbody with a ballpoint pen (or screwdriver if the owner will permit) looking for rust. Fifteen minutes per corner.

The wheel, while interesting, doesn't add much value. Many here disdain Sepia brown, but I think it's the perfect color for a time-warp machine, a throwback to the days before Porsches were ordered by the US dealers in Guards Red, Grand Prix White or Black!

Good luck. Don't be scared off by the valuation.

[fryardds]

Originally posted by jluetjen
BTW, $24K US sounds like "S" money to me, not nice "E" money. A very nice 2.4E (which this may be) is most likely in the teens. Nice drivers are like $10K-low teens. Reasonable drivers can be found for less then $10K without too much trouble.

The seller's opening price sounds a little optimistic.

For comparision -- Turbo's can be found with a little bit of effort for that sort of money.

If this is a no rust, original paint, and documented 48K mile car the asking price is in the ball park. Your price ranges are wrong for this type of early 911E. Find a comparible car for less than 20K and buy it. Also find a '72S sunroof coupe for mid $20K and give me the heads up. I'll buy that in heartbeat.

[livi]

Big money but looks good. Love the color. Great year model.

[tiwebber]

I am going to see the car either today or tommorow. Just a couple of questions. What is concours exactly? Also, how can the seller prove to me that the car truly has ownly 48K miles?

Thanks.

[cegerer]

"Concours" would be double that price in today's market! Actually, it's just a commonly used term referring to Concours d' Elegance - very high end car shows where the cars are in far better condition than they ever were when they rolled out of the factory.

The only sure way to know the mileage is with written documentation - i.e. all repair and maintenance receipts since 1972 in consequtive order. Not many cars have that.

$24K is not 'big money' for an Early 911 in 2006.

[captainrb]

It doesn't look all that prestine,for 24K. Be patient and keep looking the northwest USA has tons of great Porsches in the year type you want. Just like the others have said.. $10,000 - $15,000 will get you a fine car. And the you do like the rest of us and spend that extra to go fast and look good !!!

[Zeke]

A "loose" definintion of concours (not concourse, as many are apt to say) is that you could take a white cloth and wipe it anywhere on, in or under the car and not soil the cloth.

Concours cars are rated in a scale of points to 100. A 100 point car would be 100% correct, 100% perfect and 100% clean to the last bolt. For example, powder coating, while nice, is not correct.

So, simply saying "concours" means nothing unless the car has been judged and you can see the judging sheet.

[livi]

Its 'big money' for a some early 911īs, but a steal for others.

Obviously depends on several factors, some of which we can not accurately judge from the above info alone.

In that perspective, IMO, its leaning toward 'big money' as opposed to 'steal'.

[javadog]

At a minimum, prepping a car for a local (non-marque specific) concours event would entail what is done for a good detail. A wash, polish and wax, a thorough cleaning of the interior, trunk and engine bay, etc. as well as correcting minor faults. A local Porsche-specific concours (say, a Porsche club event) would take that a step further. Usually, good cars will have had a lot of time spent on cleaning of the engine bay, the wheel wells and other areas that are visible to the judges and not ordinarily cleaned on a daily driven car. Preparation for a national club-level event is a huge amount of effort and essentially the car is as clean as the day it rolled out of the factory. Literally every aspect of the car is prepared. This requires a certain amount of disassembly. Preparation for an international event takes a full restoration of the car and few Porsches are ever entered in these types of events. Prices for a Pebble Beach quality effort start at around 250K.

This car, as displayed in the photos, is not even ready for a local event. Perhaps the seller entered the car in an event or two in the past, thus it is a "concours car." It tells me that either the seller doesn't know much or that he is a bit of a BS artist.

The surface rust visible on the suspension should not be there for a car of that mileage that has never seen rain. In addition, you can see a build-up of road grime consistent with useage in all kinds of weather. I base this on a comparison with other cars of know history and similar mileage. Perhaps the current owner is not the original owner and he means HE has never driven it in the rain. In any event, I don't believe the claim. The car may have very little rust of any consequence and may be in fine shape for a '72 model car but the pictures don't match the description the seller gives.

Take a look at the photo of the headliner. It is not in as good a condition as I would expect, for that few miles. I have a couple of cars with that sort of mileage and the headliner on each of them looks brand new. No wrinkles, no loose areas and no staining or discoloration, as you see around the sunroof area on this car.

The carpet looks wrong to me, as well. This could simply be a result of the poor detail in the pictures but the standard carpet in that year for an E had a little more "texture." Of course, there may have been an option that allowed a person to order the carpet that was standard in the S. I don't recall. That's why I suggested earlier checking the carpet on the back of the rear seats to see if it matched the rest of the car. Like I say, it may just be the fuzzy pictures but it's worth checking.

As for the documentation of the mileage, what you need would be a file of any records that would give both a date and a mileage figure for the car at a point in time. This can be from service tickets, inspection receipts, copies of registrations or titles and the like. You are trying to establish that there have been enough points in the car's history where the mileage has been recorded that you feel confident that there are no significant time gaps where the mileage shown on the car could have been reduced. It takes all of 5 minutes to change the speedometer in a 911 and replace it with one of lower mileage. If the seller can't document the mileage, at some point I'd suggest pulling the speedo out and making sure it is the correct part number for that year and that the date code printed on the back is consistent with the production date of the car.

I am not trying to run the car down, or convince you that the owner is a crook. I am simply trying to explain some of the things you need to consider when evaluating a car like this. Perhaps the seller isn't the original owner and he is representing the car to you, as it was represented to him when he bought it. Not every buyer is well-informed or clear-headed when they buy a car.

I believe that if the car is as represented, a value over $20k in not unreasonable in today's market. However, the car has to be legit. If there is no documentation to support the seller's mileage claims or if the car truly is not in the cosmetic and mechanical condition that you would expect of a car with that mileage, then the price should be in the teens, as others have suggested. If the original seats and steering wheel can't be found, it hurts the value a little, to most buyers interested in maintining the originality of the car. That doesn't mean that the seller won't peddle the car to a less-educated buyer at a high price - it happens every day, as the market is full of idiots and speculators.

Just go into the deal with both eyes open and trust your instincts. If it looks promising, spend some money with people that know these cars and get it thoroughly checked.

I hope it turns out to be a nice car.

JR

[tiwebber]

I saw the car.

Generally: the car has had "two" owners. THe sellers uncle bought it in Vancouver BC in 1973. He does'nt have info. about the original owner. He bought it from his uncle in 1994. He has all records since 1973.

1. Mileage: the records indicate most miles were put on in the 70's... apparently by the uncle who is collector while showing the car in the 70's. The records indicate the seller put on about 12K miles in the last 10 years. He got a baby and this is why he's selling. Notable is that his dad is a concours judge. I got the impression he was a very careful person who cares about the car and worries constantly when driving it.... what if Dad and Uncle found out he broke it!

2. Rust. Just like the pictures, it has surface rust on the bottom suspension. Door, pans, fenders, front storage and everything else looks clean.

3. Steering wheel and Chairs were upgraged in 74-75 but dont have originals.

4. Has original mirror and tools and manuals for the car.

5. Carpet looks very clean and consistent and he says it original. The fabric on the ceiling looks way better than in the above pics.

6. There's once bump - see pics.

I wrote all this once before but loaded lots of pictures. My whole post (which took an hour to load) was blown away. Live and learn. Have lots more pics but might try only 3 here for now.

[Steve Marshall]

The color is a plus:>)

[Bob Goding]

Looks like its on 7"wheels, too

[real550A]

That's a pretty decent specimen of a 35 year old, unrestored car.
It won't take much to bring that one right up.
Make sure the engine is up to par, and offer what your concience will allow.
"E's" are following "S's" right up the ladder.

p.s. Sepia....that's Hot!