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CPO porsche and extensive prior damage

Looking for advice from the collective.

Just bought a '14 Cayenne diesel through a neighboring dealer. Very nice car and at a fair price.

I was adamant about buying a CPO car as this is my wife's daily driver and I don't need the headache of fixing expensive diesel parts. Car has just over 3 years of CPO warranty remaining (long story) which was a big portion of the buying decision making process. Car was sold with a clean carfax, Porsche inspection report, yada yada. All the hoops necessary to get through the Certified Pre Owned process.

I've owned the car for just a few days. While paging through the manual last night I come across a 8.5K receipt for bodywork due to an accident. This spans 4 body panels worth of paint work from a front end collision that wiped out intercoolers, oil cooler and radiator. Additionally, the receipt had a 1K credit car receipt attached making it clear this was an insurance claim and the then owner simply paid his deductible. Ran by my local body shop who tell me the work was done well, but still obvious to a trained eye. A trained eye I do not have.


Now the sticky part:

-Per PNA more than 3 adjacent body panels of damage would make this car ineligible for a CPO warranty. I fear that the bigger the stink I make with Porsche North America the greater the likelihood that I effectively invalidate the CPO warranty I just paid a premium for.

-I'm potentially impacted by a presently clean carfax eventually showing the accident (as it was paid for by insurance) thereby diminishing future value. Frankly, I feel this point is likely my issue (and bad luck) by given the situation it is an extra punch in the gut.

I've made the dealer aware of the issue but have yet to hear back.

I'm not looking to get out of this deal, as I like the car and it suits our purpose. That said, the new information changes the state of the bargain pretty significantly.

Any advice on what an equitable resolution is? Anyone deal with something similar?
Old 12-06-2018, 07:01 AM
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Carfax is a joke. My E46 was damaged to the tune of $7500 in a rear-ender that never showed on Carfax. It was an insurance claim, all done at the dealer, still never showed on Carfax. Amazingly, a pedestrian who claimed I tapped her in a crosswalk and wanted a ride to the hospital, which my insurance paid for, DID show up on Carfax, though the car never touched her and nothing was damaged/injured.

Anyway, subscribed.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:09 AM
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1.
There was a CPO GT3 1 year old used car that crashed at a PCA DE.
The airbags failed to go off and when it was at the garage for repairs there was evidence of prior unreported repairs.
Porsche gave the owner a new GT3 just to make it all go away.

2.
Another story in progress a non CPO 1 year old GT3 bought for $140k from an independent dealer was found 3 weeks after purchase to have had major unreported repairs.
That one the lawyers are dealing with now.
Old 12-06-2018, 07:49 AM
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You need a bit more detail.

4 panels of paint work does not necessarily mean 4 panels of damage.

You could have 2 panels of damage and 2 additional panels of paint for blending.

You tend to see this a lot with Silver cars. Silver is a beotch to match.

Once looked at a BMW that had damage limited to drivers door but the entire left side of the car had been sprayed to make it less obvious.

It is possible that you can go after them for reduced value compensation, which I most certainly would, AND keep your premium CPO warranty.

In my mind, they are separate issues so don't let them try to lump one into the other.

Good luck.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:53 AM
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Thanks,

First off, it is non-metallic black car so paint match is easier than most I'm told.

Some more details from what I can make out from the invoice.

-Front bumper cover, intercooler, radiator, oil cooler were all damaged beyond repair and were replaced along with several related brackets and lights.
-left and right quarter panels and hood were repaired in the areas where they touch the bumper cover. I expect that the cost of repair was lower than replacement as these are seemingly expensive parts.

Work was done at a BMW dealer, not a Porsche dealer, in Texas. I mention this on the basis that there is no claim that the work was done by a Porsche dealer and in accordance with Porsche CPO specifications.

I bough the car from my neighboring dealer here in the northeast. I expect that the car was a buyback from Porsche due to the VW diesel emission saga. My dealer bought the car from Porsche, shipped it up here to put on their lot and resold it to me.

My understanding is Porsche CPO is not permitted on a vehicle that has had this level of prior damage.

Curious how the diminished value conversation goes with the dealer. Is it as simple as "what you sold me had prior unreported repairs that you should have know about, refund me x,xxx.00 dollars?"

Welcome any thoughts from folks who deal with this more often than me.


Vin
Old 12-06-2018, 09:06 AM
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The Porsche inspection report should have caught the repairs. They misrepresented the vehicle.

If you want to keep it, then they owe you 'something'. I would want a cash rebate, you might be more flexible.

If you want to get rid if it, then they they owe you a full refund.

For me it would be cash back and they honor the CPO, or a full refund.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlocci View Post

My understanding is Porsche CPO is not permitted on a vehicle that has had this level of prior damage.

Curious how the diminished value conversation goes with the dealer. Is it as simple as "what you sold me had prior unreported repairs that you should have know about, refund me x,xxx.00 dollars?"
Mrs. Lee's last E92 looked new and was low miles, but was not CPO from the dealer. They couldn't explain why, but their throwing in an even better than CPO warranty made us not press the matter. Later on when Mrs. Lee got into a fender bender, the shop that was repairing and spraying the rear bumper called me down there. The bumper had Bondo repair. No biggie, it was repaired perfectly the first time, but didn't show on Carfax. We assume the dealer knew about this, or even repaired it themselves, which is why they couldn't CPO it.

You'd need to go to an appraiser for a diminished value claim. I wouldn't expect the dealer to be real generous on the first try.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:22 AM
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thanks,

good to see that I'm not being unreasonable.

Spoke briefly with the dealer, who offered to walk back the deal until he realized he had taken my wife's former daily driver in on trade (which is now off at auction somewhere). As expected this has turned into the "I need to talk to my manager" conversation.

I'll continue to get my ducks in order. Good news is I just got the Porsche North America / JD power dealer survey request. I'm told poor reviews can actually impact a dealer's rating and performance. While I'm not looking to hold anyone hostage, I've at least got some semblance of leverage.

I welcome thoughts on next steps. Is there any magic formula for diminished value claims?

Vin
Old 12-06-2018, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1990C4S View Post
The Porsche inspection report should have caught the repairs. They misrepresented the vehicle.

If you want to keep it, then they owe you 'something'. I would want a cash rebate, you might be more flexible.

If you want to get rid if it, then they they owe you a full refund.

For me it would be cash back and they honor the CPO, or a full refund.
Totally agree with this. How much did you pay for the car?
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:32 AM
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Magic formula? Well, my experience is that people like car dealers, insurance adjusters, etc. are much more likely to do as requested when talking to an attorney than a mere customer.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:36 AM
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Vehicle price was just under 40K.

Can't unwind the deal as they took a car in on trade (which is now at auction)

They don't have anything on the used lot (Diesel Cayenne) that is nicer or newer so no prospects of requesting a no-cash swap/upgrade.

Going to put a call into Porsche NA to see if they can offer some insight without giving them my specific details.
Old 12-06-2018, 10:36 AM
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HA!, while I don't practice I'm actually a member of the bar.

Trying in desperation to not play the slimeball attorney card yet, but if need be will dig out the old business cards
.
The problem, and what prompted this post, is I'm not really sure what I'm asking for.

$4K (10%) on a 40K car back to me? Seems excessive.

$500.00? seems not worthwhile.

It would be different if there was an alternative on the lot, but sadly no.

Vin
Old 12-06-2018, 10:41 AM
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This reminds me of when my daughter traded in her CPO Civic on a new Accord back in '13. After the deal was done and we were doing the deal on our CR-V, the sales manager came over and asked if our daughter had ever had an accident with her car. No. Well, they inspected the car after all the paperwork was done (the car had been in their shop for a service) and they found it had been hit in the rear and the damage wouldn't allow them to sell it as a CPO car. I said it sounds like you have a beef with the dealer that sold it to my daughter as CPO, not her. I think they ended up auctioning the car off. They didn't want to kill the sale of two new cars so didn't press the issue with us.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1990C4S View Post
The Porsche inspection report should have caught the repairs. They misrepresented the vehicle.

If you want to keep it, then they owe you 'something'. I would want a cash rebate, you might be more flexible.

If you want to get rid if it, then they they owe you a full refund.

For me it would be cash back and they honor the CPO, or a full refund.
Totally agree. You paid a premium for a CPO car expecting the car to meet a certain standard, including a lack of paintwork and accident damage. They marketed and priced the car as a CPO but obviously did not fully inspect it, hence they misrepresented it. I would either want a refund to the approximate value of a non-CPO Cayenne, or to reverse the sale and provide me with a rental car for a reasonable period of time.

Do a little research, look at listing prices for similar CPO and non-CPO cars to establish the delta. Also look at listing sites like KBB and NADA, they will provide different value for CPO vs non-CPO. You can also look at adjustment in the condition valuation, most would not consider a car with major accident history to meet the standards of "excellent" condition.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:38 AM
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Well, they sold you a car that was misrepresented. Why not refund the whole price and they keep the trade-in? They're a professional Porsche dealer, they should be responsible for the quality of their inspection. It sounds like a lot of work was done to your Cayenne. $3-4K sounds reasonable to me.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:45 AM
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I would say "No accident history" and "Accident history" would be a delta of around $4k on a '14 Porsche. You are basically after a diminished value claim for the previous accident - but not involving the insurance company and instead the dealer.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:55 AM
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Just walk in there with a bucket of baby-poo yellow paint and yell

"I'M AN ATTORNY!!!!"

It'll work itself out.


(I apologize, it's a PPOT joke that might be before your stay here.)
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlocci View Post
$4K (10%) on a 40K car back to me? Seems excessive.

$500.00? seems not worthwhile.



Vin
So ask for $4K, they'll counter and you'll likely be satisfied with most anything between that and what you think seems worthwhile, $?,000.00.

Plus keeping the warranty of course.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:18 PM
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Gogar,

I've been playing in this sandbox long enough to recall that reference. Nice throwback and excellent suggestion! What could possibly go wrong?

Dealer is seemingly trying to help, which is good. I'll give it a day or two to see how things shake out.

Recouping the delta between CPO and non-CPO NADA prices was a great suggestion. By that logic, with some rounding up, we are close to a $4K difference. Obviously, I wish to keep my warranty which was the basis of this deal.


Vin
Old 12-06-2018, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlocci View Post
HA!, while I don't practice I'm actually a member of the bar.

Trying in desperation to not play the slimeball attorney card yet, but if need be will dig out the old business cards
.
The problem, and what prompted this post, is I'm not really sure what I'm asking for.

$4K (10%) on a 40K car back to me? Seems excessive.

$500.00? seems not worthwhile.

It would be different if there was an alternative on the lot, but sadly no.

Vin
I would want more than $4k in this situation, that is a pretty serious material misrepresentation and as you know, whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant, (and impossible to prove). If you are losing the CPO warranty, at least $10k for your trouble if you have to keep the car.

The fact that you won't have to pay some attorney's fees is a plus. And what is the point of 3 years of law school and enduring all of the lawyer jokes if you don't get to pimp-slap someone once in a while?
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:18 PM
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