Has The Market Softened For The 23 Window?
 

...or caveat emptor?

It’s very preliminary, but I have a chance of picking up this 23 Window bus (from a friend of my daughter’s) for $60K. She grew up hearing me moan about selling my 21 Window in ‘88 (for $1700!) to finance my honeymoon, so when her buddy told her he had a bus for sale she texted me right away.

As of yet I haven’t seen it in person (that happens Saturday), and if they told me the year I don’t even remember, but the seller claims it’s a good, rust-free driver, California car, located in Los Angeles and that it’s been completely restored.

So I hop online and a cursory look around seems to suggest $60K might be a good price, but that the days of 6 figure buses may be over. True?

Again, I haven’t even seen it in person so...

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My advice is worth no more, and probably less, than you paid for it. My thinking is that every generation of cars goes through boom and bust cycles based on the age of the people who grew up with that era of cars. Everyone wants the premier car of their youth. As that cohort ages, the cars they love fall out of favor. My considered opinion is that 1960s vehicles, especially hippy vehicles, speak to specific generation of baby boomers who are quickly dying out. They love the premier vehicles of their era. No one else does. I do think the market for 23 window vans is dropping and I think that it will one day drop the way that early 1900s vintage cars dropped. When my dad was young they were high dollar collectors cars. Now they’re interesting pieces of history and worth a few dollars to keep around because they’re interesting. I think all VW vans are like that. If it’s what you want and can afford it, get it. Life’s short. You should enjoy it to the max. But as an investment I think it’s in an inevitable downward slope.

My advise isn't worth spit, when I was a lad, my parents bought a new 1960 regular VW bus it was a novelty and other VW bus owners used to flash their lights, 30 or so HP and it might hit 55 on a downhill. I just don't see it going UP in value any more.

I watched them cut a very clean one up and make a hot rod out of it on Overhaulin' just the other night. Seemed a shame for a nice, drivable "survivor".

Problem with the restored ones for me is all the repop parts. See them at Barrett Jackson every year. They look off.

I wish I knew more about them, I'm sure someone will be abler than I.

I think it's a 65/66/67, judging by the shape of the taillights. The lack of a pass through between the front seats will probably be a clue, too. Like I said, I don't know all the peccadillos. It's missing a passenger side mirror, the w/w's are ragged (most likely a fairly weatherbeaten restoration) and the headlights are aftermarket.

I never understood why someone would pay those kinds of prices. I had a '65, and for a 19 year old hippie, it was an ok car, but absolutely nothing special, and like Hugh said, if the speedometer was accurate, 55 came around only with the hand of god on your back, or a tailwind and a downhill. If you happen to rearend someone, your legs are the impact bumper, and no matter how much work you do to them, those windows and doors will rattle and shake....

Good luck if it's something you want, I know I'm just putting in my two bummers...but I just never understood the appeal. Maybe it's sour grapes because I traded mine for a Peugeot that immediately cracked a head...

Paging Thom

I’m biased but I’d buy it .

To echo herr-oberst: my Mom had a small, like 10 mph accident, in Hyannis Port, Cape Cod in about 1962 with the Bus, front left as facing the vehicle, I was in the front passenger seat, had I not been sitting cross-legged in the front seat, I'm pretty sure I would have lost my legs.

had a 62 window van
can you say broken transfer case ? twice ?
how the gutless pig broke anything is a mystery
much rather have my room mate's 62 econoline with a 351 cleveland he put in it

extra windoz = leaks and rust never got the attraction

type 4 later was driveable

Found photos.

The Chip Foose Designs VW Microbus

They added a couple of windows.

They used to say that the best cure for wanting a Volkswagen bus is getting a Volkswagen bus.

I grew up through the era when these were new. The only folks that had them only had them because they couldn't afford anything better. They were horrible then, whether you were driving one, riding in one, or stuck behind one. The demands of modern traffic have not improved that situation.

Compared to the 23 window buses listed on The Samba, it's a good price:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?submit=yes&type=text&section%5B%5D=5&ke ywords=23+window

$60K, I nearly spilt the pinot down the front of my shirt. I sold mine for about $300.00. Minor rust and the doors popped open on hard corners, but otherwise excellent.

Basic question: are you sure it is a real 23 window? You can buy the entire roof panel etc and create a 23 window of your own from a cheaper bus, be sure what you are looking at.

+1 to paging Thom

If it's what you want, get it, and enjoy, if it's too much money, pass, and find another. The market on these is driven by boomers who remember taking trips with their parents, and want to recapture some memories.

I think these buses are cool, especially lowered with more HP and the "right wheels"..but I'm thinking if I had one what do I with it?

Do you take it on a night out with the wife and maybe another couple? When they are restored so majestically, its not like you can take them to Home Depot or the Garden Center to pick up mulch or drywall. Long distance trips would be a bit miserable especially in the middle of summer and I'm sure these perfectly restored ones are never driven in inclement weather...so when do you exactly drive them?

I have seen ridiculous prices for a 23 window. It is a cult car - like Broncos right now. If I had Jay Leno money, I would add a clean 23 to my collection but I just don't see the value of this vehicle or the need for one.

Maybe Gabriel can add it to his collection.

Inside Gabriel “Fluffyâ€� Iglesias’ dream VW collection – Newsroom

If you believe Hagerty values of the absolute best continue to rise but flat for everything else. Anecdotally speaking the fever pitch seems to have died down. The Euros are not in trawling the local SoCal VW events like they were a couple of years ago. Westfalias took off quickly as split screens got silly but even now those are calming down. I think buses are an itch you scratch then move on. I had a couple when the kids were small but they/we got tired of the snail pace and lack of comfort. Buy it to enjoy it rather than make money on it. You shouldn’t loose much unless you have a 15-30 ownership horizon.

I hope not, but in reality, the leading edge of the market hype has died. Things went nuts after some 'tard paid $200k+ for a '62 23-window at BJ, but a year or so later, a nicer, earlier bus only went for $90k. The are lots of 6-figure buses listed on TheSamba, but if the prices reflected reality they would be sold by now.

I hope to get paint on my '57 in the next few montsh

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I recently sold my 67 13 window VW bus as I changed my life's interests. As others said, split window buses are a love/hate relationship and you must be a mechanical DIYer to really enjoy one. I will disagree that the popularity is limited to we "boomers." When I had my bus, I got the greatest positive responses from young people who all wanted to sit in it and take pictures of themselves inside or around it. Older folks always mentioned that they "had one just like it" and usually made a nostalgic remark regarding their lives at the time.

As far as that particular bus, it appears to be a 62 or 63 due to the small rear hatch but the "fried egg" turn signals. 64 and later were not 23 windows due to the larger rear hatch, unless they are Brazilian buses which have flooded the market recently. That bus has tons of repro parts, making it hard to determine the year, but doesn't detract, IMO. If you are serious, get the VIN from the engine tin, not the ID plate on the overhead vent. That will tell you if it's an authentic 23 window or a clone. To be worth full value, the VIN in the engine bay must match the VIN on the overhead vent, and the ID plate screwed to the bulkhead behind the passenger seat backrest. If it doesn't have all 3 IDs, at least the engine bay must be there to be considered worth purchasing.

As far as the market, it does seem to be softening as real 23 window buses were crazy high. Still, $60K, IMO, is a lot for that bus without knowing the extent of its originality and quality of the restoration. I would suggest taking a person knowledgeable of split-windows with you to inspect the bus.

One more thing. Unlike the antique cars mentioned in another post, these buses are practical and can be driven regularly--with the proper mind-set. Engines and transmissions can be modified to make it tolerable, but it will never keep up with full-flow interstate traffic without stressing. Yes, stay in the right lane on the interstate and enjoy the ride. These vehicles should be considered a "fun car" for part-time use, but they can be pressed into service for the long-haul if properly maintained.

Edit: Forgot to compliment widebody 911 on his 57! Very nice, indeed! Please post when paint is done and further completed.

I drove the crap outa mine in college (early 80’s), and really enjoyed it, and it was my daily driver. A Great party bus, and a hoot to take to Newport or Huntington. Only trouble ever had with it was a leaking rear main seal (if I remember correctly) that would let oil get into all the junkyard starters I’d put in it. After a while I quit replacing starters and would try to park on a slight incline (very easy at hilly Cal Poly). Heck, a stiff breeze was enough to push that thing and start it.

Of course, I was a LOT younger then...

I still wish I hadn’t sold it, but at the time it was the right decision, and since someone had hacked the rear wheel wells, I never thought it could be fixed or worth keeping. Man was I wrong.

It didn’t look like much, but it was sure fun to own. A crap load of smiles to the mile!


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I resemble all of the above remarks!

Had a couple in college in the late 60s-early 70s and actually lived the cliche of following the Grateful Dead from town to town with my girlfriend for a while.

So to recapture a moment of youth I bought a 64 Panel a couple years ago. Too much fun and attracts almost too much attention! Getting gas should only take 2-3 minutes.....nope more like 20 minutes because everyone else getting gas has to come over and check it out and tell me their VW story.

But even though it's been fun it's time for someone else to have fun. It's for sale.

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Well, here you are in my back yard (that's why none of you recognize me).

Actually, the record for a 23 is now at $312K..
When drunk billionaires get in a bidding war at BJ to impress their mistresses,
These kinds of things happen.

The ones that sold for stupid money were not OG survivor 'connoisseur' buses; they were shiny restored with chintzy aftermarket parts; and not even an early model year.
Talk about waking up with a hangover thinking "what have I done"!?!
Guess people have done worse at the casinos..

The number of re-pop parts will determine value.
Bus geeks will closely scrutinize things like headlights, and part numbers on tail-light lenses.
The number of OG German parts will determine the ultimate value of one of these in the long run.

Some shameless fakes have been passed off lately.
Once the billionaires get to bidding, there's always those looking for a quick buck.
Here's a good read for ya -->https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=694683&highlight=attorney

I can speak from having two buses for sale right now that the market is softening.
Because the #vanlife #wanderlust #gofundme lifestyle has been played out, like any passing fad,
And anyone with money who wanted a 21/23 got one.
Add the influx of Brazilian buses who someone now figured out the loophole to get licensed and road-legal in the US,
Drive-in conversion for your 13-15 is now available..
We have an 'adjustment' coming.

BAD time to buy. Wait, and you'll see.

Remember tri-five Chevies in the Late 80s?
Can you even give away a Model T these days?

If you really want a 21/23, take a bus geek to look at it with you.
Only a German-made, Built-originally-as-a-deluxe-21/23 with many OG parts will retain some value.
Think 'antiques roadshow'; shiny paint, new upholstery - red flag - 'restroyed'.
Holy grail is original paint.. But we can't have everything..
Bus people are idiots about original paint, if you ever go to one of those events you'll see.
Patina is a way of life for some of them..! (inserts eye-roll)

Hope this helps.
If you want to buy a deluxe because you love them that's fine,
But your timing investment-wise is very poor.
Even people who know nothing about these have known this for a while..

I had a '67 in about 1988. Should have held on to it. :(

My brother has a 1974 Westphalia van. He has had it since 1977. He does not remember how many time the odometer has rolled over. Every time he drives it, someone offers to buy it, and of course they want to pay 600 bucks. His standard answer is the same thing I reply when people ask to buy my El Camino. We both reply, "What would I replace it with" there is no other vehicle on the market that is a honest replacement for it. He had spent thousands of night in in camping, and he figures there have been over 100 dead deer on top of of it being hauled home from the hunting trips he makes.

I was looking at a Studebaker in good original condition someone local was selling for a couple grand. Unfortunately someone else snapped it up before I could put together the $$$.

So, when are 60's Vette prices going to start dropping? ;)

All great info, thanks. I think I gonna pass, because of the above , but also:

I’m looking for more of a project. Not cutting our rust and welding etc, but there doesn’t appear to be much at all to do on this one.

And, I can (and do) drive my 911 all over the western U.S. Especially up and down California. That’s something I think I could do after restoring a Bay Window bus; not at all with this one.

Thanks again guys - guess I needed a dose of sanity.

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They look like a bread box on wheels.

Wow Clatter - epic post - thank you! You should stop by more often!

Due to your entire post, plus what I’ve read in the first 15 pages of The Samba (very sad) thread you linked above... HARD PASS. Thanks again.

Ps - re The Samba thread, I couldn’t help but notice the scrolling gif at the bottom of each page:

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I never see that - uBlock FTW!

But yes, that shop will install roof windows and sunroof in your existing bus, or sell you the parts to do so

Thanks for the props.

You will find other sad tales if you dig around on the Samba.
Luckily, the one I linked had a happy ending.

Go over to the barndoor forum there and look at some of those crazy resurrection threads.
The lengths that people will go to now to resurrect an early bus is jaw-dropping.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578352&postdays=0&postorder=asc&st art=0
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579485


Love this site,
But,
Because I'm already on too many other forums,
I just lurk here.

If you want to see something really stupid,
Here's my '67 Fastback with 914 motor, 915 transaxle, 944T brakes, 968 Wheels, etc..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=581759
(I won't take it personally if nobody reads it, I realize you time has to be worth something ;-) )