The comments too.

and now this:

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/boeing-rejects-claim-shoddy-production-dreamliner-factory-n996861

Some pretty scary worker reports...

You can hear the same type talk from damn near any facility.

I was responsible for in plant and outgoing quality at several tire plants. I was a rare one since I advanced in the production side and then moved into the quality organization. The balance between production and quality was most always a head knocker.

It would have been a fascinating comparison of regional cultures.

I trust this isn't too far off topic, but has anyone read about offshoring some of the engineering?

Aug 24 2017
How Boeing and Airbus use Russia's expertise to develop their airplanes
https://www.rbth.com/business/2017/08/24/how-boeing-and-airbus-use-russias-expertise-to-develop-their-airplanes_827604

Nothing is "designed" at the BDC by their "Russian engineers". The article has it completely wrong. These BDC "engineers" do some of the drafting (on programs that still use paper drawings) and CAD modeling (in CATIA V5) of designs that are fed to them by Boeing engineers. Anything they do actually "design" is pretty low level, repetitive stuff, like a dozen variations of the same bracket (that a Boeing engineer originally designed), or doubler, or stringer, or whatever, for use in different locations. All really low level, essentially drafting type work. The kind of stuff kach could even do, with proper oversight.

Even Kach? Damn...

You forgot the luggage shelves they did for Airbus.

It still cracks me up that someone in the forum thought Jeff was one of the higher ups at Boeing, yet another posted a photo of a former CEO.

You can be anything you want to be on the Internet, hey Jeff?

Never claimed to be anything other than a lowly AOG tooling engineer. I had a wonderful career, had the opportunity to do some really cool and unique things, and truly enjoyed every minute of it. I'm sorry if that upsets you so, kach.

Back to those Russian "engineers". The BDC has the highest turnover of any group with which we have ever worked. We had nothing but problems with the work coming from them, with the majority of it having to be reworked once it got to us. They were impossible to work with in an effort to get them to improve as well. They simply weren't interested. They would much rather spend their days surfing the internet, and billing us for the hours they spent doing so. That, and they considered themselves "experts" in all manner of things they had never done and did not understand.

So, yes, kach would fit right in. He might even shine a little bit against a backdrop like that. Maybe then he wouldn't be so angry, resentful, and envious of those of us who have enjoyed meaningful, fulfilling careers.

You sure did nothing to correct errors you helped promote Mr. Expert.

You should stick to doing stupid things on your motorcycle and when confronted cower away in the stench of your own farts.

Great story, but I wonder why you posted it.

I put a good deal of effort into correcting your many errors in that conversation. So did many others. You were simply unable to comprehend, much less accept, our knowledge in topics you clearly did not understand.

I've done a lot of stupid things on my motorcycles. Could you be more specific? I have no idea to which story you refer. :confused:

Everything you just said is a lie, have you been practicing?

You don't know what you are talking about, and pointing out that others are just as ill-informed proves nothing.

The fact that you cannot keep track of the stupid things you have done is a warning sign. Maybe you have someone look into that for you, someone that doesn't just make stuff up to boost their own ego.

He didn't say he can't keep track, he asked for you to be more specific.

I don't know Jeff from a hole in the wall and have no dog in the roost, but try comprehending what was written.

So, are you saying you have no crayons?

Kach,
Might I suggest you put Mike on your Ignore list?
That way you won't be offended by his presence on this board.
And, if you cease your shrill attacks perhaps some of us won't be offended by yours.

Best
Les

There you go - you sound exactly like one of the Russian "engineers" at the BDC. Give it a go, kach - they are always hiring. You would finally be among kindred spirits.

I actually see it as a badge of honor, of sorts. I have absolutely done more stupid schitt in my life than I will ever be able to remember. Some of it has even left some scars, to help me remember. Those were the best ones.

My ego needs no "boosting". You can ask anyone who has actually met me, and they will tell you that I really don't even have one to boost.

I do, however, like to spin a good yarn. It's actually a well respected art form amongst us Irish. The best stories always have an element of truth, with the general rule of thumb being that as one ages and his stories "mature", the grain of truth that started the story becomes ever more suspect. It's all a part of the fun.

Unless, of course, one is an unaccomplished spectator to life, full of resentment over others' lives and accomplishments. Then one becomes quite humorless, constantly looking to pick the fly schitt out of the pepper in every story one hears, hoping to seize some sort of "gotcha!" moment from which one can accuse the story teller of "lying", in some feeble, desperate hope of elevating one's self over the story teller.

That's you in a nutshell, kach. On full display, for all of us to see. It's sad. As I've mentioned many times already, I do honestly feel sorry for you. Maybe a move to Moscow would do you some good. You could impress those other losers over there by claiming to know some "big wheel" at Boeing, since you keep insisting I've claimed to be one. You might even get a cubicle close to a window.

How about you quit ****ing up yet another thread with your mindless attacks on Higgins?

Better yet, how about you just read this thread, since you don't have much to contribute on this specific topic.

We can all do a Google search and most of us can read on our own now.

I am in Aviation and I fully believe Jeff's credentials as he has described them here, have very much enjoyed the information he supplies on multiple threads, and have yet to see him post information that is inaccurate.
Kach, well, nothing flattering to say there so I will leave it at that.

there goes another thread, thanks kach


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1556052672.jpg

edit: more

<iframe width="964" height="542" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SrYkeXNYOG8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Bless you, Les. I am working on becoming more Les-like:)

I was the Chief Government Flight Test guy at the Sikorsky Factory for three years. Big factories are hard to manage due to many competing factions...while my sphere of influence was from aircraft induction into the flight hangar forward to flight test and acceptance, I worked on the manufacturing floor quite a bit.

It was one of the best tours of duty I had...incredible to see metal on Jig 1 become an aircraft I flew. I did have issues, shut down production twice in my three years due to QA issues...shut down the entire CH-53E production line for months after an accident that killed my roommate (my family stayed in Maryland). It is rough and tumble.

There are any, many checks and balances in aircraft production...Boeing may have hurdles to overcome, but they will. They have to.

Let's get back on track here. I was kind of reluctant to discuss the South Carolina thing, but what the hell, I'll share my experiences and observations.

Our union mechanics lovingly refer to them as the "South Carolina Airplane Builders" - SCAB. They have nothing but disdain for their Southern counterparts. Not just because they feel they are stealing their jobs, but mostly because they are tired of cleaning up their mess, airplane after airplane.

I cannot remember how many 787's roll out of Everett compared to SCAB, but I think I remember the numbers were about half a dozen or more out of Everett for every one out of South Carolina, and South Carolina has more people working on them. To add insult to injury, every airplane leaving SCAB flies directly to Everett, where it spends some time on the flight line getting reworked to correct all of its problems, and finished up so that it is ready for delivery.

Countless people from Everett have gone to South Carolina to try to help them through their production problems. They universally come back with two observations: the work ethic down there is quite poor, and the level of education of their mechanics and assembly workers is not high enough to allow them to work on something as complex as an airplane.

There is a certain minimum level of reading comprehension required to perform this kind of work. In airplane building, there are detailed work instructions that need to be read and understood, drawings that need to be read and understood, and that kind of thing. Their typical public school system high school graduate is incapable of doing either.

Much has been written about the sad state of affairs of their public education system down there. In speaking with their engineers, they will readily admit that anyone who can afford to send their kids to private schools does so and, as a result, they see no reason to adequately fund their public schools. The only kids attending public schools are only there because their parents cannot afford anything else. This is where SCAB's mechanics and assemblers come from. They function at what most of us would consider about a fifth grade level, if that. They simply do not possess the tools to do what they are being asked to do.

The guys that are tasked with going down there to help are met with that, and their horrible work ethic. Trying to deal with them quickly sees one rejected as some damn Yankee know-it-all, trying to tell these good ol' boys how to do their jobs. They're having none of it. They get pretty damn hostile about it... Even their own engineers, as a matter of fact, get the same treatment to some degree. Most of them are from somewhere else anyway, so they have an equally difficult time with these lazy, uneducated, stand off-ish factory workers.

I believe most companies who manufacture products of even modest complexity who have looked to The South as a ready pool of cheap labor have eventually left in frustration. It gets to be pretty obvious fairly quickly what they are up against. I wonder how much longer this situation will be allowed to fester. The only way I see it surviving is if all of the labor winds up being imported from somewhere else. Boy, talk about some local friction and unrest if it ever comes to that...

What a hoot!
I misnamed:Mr. Higgins.
MIke Higgins was a guy who lived across the hall 46 years ago.
Sorry, Jeff.
Seriously though, you could have made the last post without the architect crack.
You're better than that.
Best
Les

He attacked me first you mindless idiot butt sniffer.

I've helped a lot of people.

The ones I do not help either do not need it, or are lost causes.

You go work for free and tell me how that works out for you.

Many other architects on this board don't speak up for that reason, and it's a good one.

He is not better than that, and has proved it many times.

Yeah, but you’re the one that never lets it go. It wasn’t even on this thread, so **** off.

One of your better posts Jeff, I wonder how it would be received in PARF?

Figure 1. North America – motor vehicle industry footprint, 2010
http://revel.unice.fr/eriep/index.html?id=3369
http://revel.unice.fr/eriep/docannex...3369/img-1.png

Most of the North American automobile plants have figured out how to achieve quality despite regional differences.

Maybe instead of the automobile companies borrowing executives from Boeing, Boeing should be recruiting from the automobile industry?

Just a thought.

I did nothing of the kind, and everyone on this forum knows it.

Kach, it's pretty obvious by now that you are one of the least respected members of this forum. Bald faced lies such as this, and childish accusations of "he started it!", only serve to further cement your position. Don't you ever get tired of this?

I worked at SCAB (lol) for a few years when the home building industry was in the crapper. I ran the Brotje machine in the 19 bldg.

Although there were some good workers, there were a lot of people (and managers!) that didn’t need to be there. Or anywhere. I saw stoopid **** happen all the time. Some friends and I used to joke that the 787 must be really over engineered to fly with all the mistakes that happened.

The funny thing was management wanted the plane moving down the line no matter how many jobs were not done. We moved it ahead of schedule! Yay! :rolleyes:

My neighbor works on the flight line. Smart guy with all the certs and education. He hates it. A friend with 25 years on the flight line in the Air Force said the same thing.

I got out as soon as I could to go back to building homes and hope I never have to fly on a 787.

Liar

Liar

Anyone can go back and check this thread, lairs get no respect from me.

They might get a laugh out of me, but no respect.

Sounds similar to people visiting food production facilities and then swearing off eating chicken or hot dogs again.

Once you know how the sausage is made it sort of changes you.

The Boeing 737 MAX Is 1 Step Closer to Flying Again -- but Don't Expect to See It Soon
Airlines are removing the Boeing 737 MAX from their summer schedules, even as Boeing continues to make progress towards getting its most important jet family back in the air.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/04/20/boeing-737-max-is-1-step-closer-to-flying-again.aspx
Sounds like the 737 is out of service until at least August.

Your dislike for Higgins goes back to well before this thread even started. And no, you can’t let it go, because you in the last day, you have continued this stupid obsession of years.

Face it, knucklehead, nobody here respects you. Nobody.

You have it the other way around, he keeps attacking me with his snarky remarks and pot shots.

My only failure is that I took the bait this time.

Javadog, you also seem to have some sort of obsession with me. Please get over it, it isn't good for your health.

Now back on topic............the 737.

Another case of Boeing milking an old product while Airbus produces a new one?

Mar 16, 2018
Boeing’s “Cash Cow” milks out its 10,000th plane
https://www.airlinereporter.com/2018/03/boeings-cash-cow-milks-out-its-10000th-plane/
How much truth is there to the following statement?

I worked for GE Power for many years. The Gas Turbine division opened a new plant in Greenville in 1973 for the new large turbines (Frame 7 & 9). Somewhere in the 1980's, the smaller machine production (Frame 5 & 6), moved to Greenville. There were some issues with the small machines (design fixes that never made it to the drawings) made in Greenville. But production has been there for almost 50 years and all production there for over 30 years.

We had the same stories from the UNION mechanics and assemblers in Schenectady as you have in Everette.

If there is an issue of low quality, it is a management/plant culture issue, not a worker issue.

If everyone ignored the troll and did not respond, he would eventually end up talking to himself.
That would get old.


I don't even talk to myself anymore, I don't care for his attitude ;)

I still talk to myself but I stopped listening...
I agree on the feeding the trolls, Sammy. Has ruined many good threads here.

I always talk to myself, but always lose the argument.

I wouldn't think there was a great deal of skill level equality between the aerospace and the automotive industries, aside from Pagani and Koenigsegg.
Not too many people are in a position to pay for that level of engineering and craftsmanship.

Best
Les

Planes are not special, they are just machines, just like a car. There is stringent quality control in production that may exceed that in automotive, but all the same, airplanes are pretty basic machines. Most of the tech in aircraft is 50 years plus old, it takes forever for systems advancements to make their way into aviation due to the certification costs and time. Systems are almost always mature, tried and true before they will implement in an aircraft. At the end of the day, assembly line jobs are the same in aviation as any other industry, carried out by the lowest paid person they can get to do the job. The control doesn't come from the worker on the floor, it comes from the quality systems associated with the process.

I agree.

At the Sikorsky Factory nearly every issue I faced was caused by management, not the engineers, foremen and workers.

In a fit of revelation, Sikorsky decided to take my challenge of doing a Kaisan event (Six Sigma in the 90's). The event covered processes and practices in administrative, engineering and manufacturing - initially focused on my bailiwick, the flight test and production hanger.

We found so much institutionalized stupidity that UT/Sikorsky expanded the Kaisan event to include the whole Bridgeport facility. Factories are all about human nature and human's compete against each other, often to the detriment of quality and efficiency.

We reduced the flight test acceptance process (leading to "selling" the aircraft to the government via what is called a DD-250) from 14 days to 12. Common sense stuff.

We also found that there were DEAD PEOPLE still getting paper copies of the DD-250 sent to their old drop box(es).

Out of autoclave composites on commercial aircraft is but one example. We proposed OOA parts for Airbus (better and cheaper than the current parts - no questions asked) but the certification process was too daunting.

The Airbus rep was nearly in tears: Like any manager he had cost reduction goals and he knew OOA composite parts we could make was the answer.