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Originally Posted by Sooner or later View Post
Rick, there are multiple cases where kids have been charged by local jurisdiction. You have created a crime if you pay someone to take the test. It is a crime if you take the test for someone else.

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, This is a New York case. 7 students

7 students arrested in SAT cheating scheme - US news - Crime & courts | NBC News
Fair enough. But your link makes no mention of specific crimes committed, charges filed or state laws violated. The only one they get close to is here:

Eshaghoff presented a forged driver's license with his picture and the paying student's name each time he took the test, they said.

Although everyone I ever knew in college had a decent fake ID, often forged or real but with someone else's name, I never knew of anyone getting in any more trouble than having a bouncer confiscate it. I have never heard of a law that makes it a crime to cheat on a test or even to pose as someone else while taking a test, as long as it's not for a state job or license and doesn't involve an altered gov't-issued ID.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:30 AM
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Admissions to the very top schools is an interesting process, which I went through with my kids and am glad to be done with.
I traveled the US and met with coaches from Harvard, Yale, Cornell, Williams, Amherst, Brown, Emory and several other top schools. Not for football, basketball or baseball.
It’s an interesting process. For the most part top schools don’t really care too much about sports, but they do care about “development” i.e. potential future donors/donations, i.e. money. So while they do look for good athletes, the kids on many of the teams tend to share very similar, let’s say, family financial and educational backgrounds. They are also, not surprisingly, almost entirely full pay students. That doesn’t happpen by accident.
I found there’s a lot of unwritten and unspoken things involved with the legal “backdoors” or “side doors” to the very top schools. To do it legally takes a pretty good measure of athletic talent and accomplishment, very high academic numbers and a good deal of resources to get it done.
Old 03-14-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
They are also, not surprisingly, almost entirely full pay students.
I used to do some work for USC and their biggest recruiting focus was in China. Wonder why? Because Chinese kids don't come here and apply for financial aid and they certainly don't get it in China to spend in the US. They pay full tuition. In fact, I was there to meet with some of their PR folks a few years ago and that was the day a Chinese student was murdered in a drive-by shooting at a nearby, off-campus apt. It was a PR nightmare for the school and my meeting was canceled, despite my very long drive from Phoenix to get there.
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:08 AM
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There were basically 2 levels of scams.

The first is like the big NY lawyer. He went to Cornell, so his kid had a huge advantage in getting in as a legacy. Plus, he probably was a huge donor. And I’d guess his kid went to a private high school that had massive grade inflation (and there’s lots of ways for a kid to cheat in high school). But they had one problem: the kid apparently scored in the mid/low 20s on the ACT and even with the advantages she had, that wasn’t going to get her through admissions.
So they paid to have her score raised.
The second type of scam is IMO far less common, and is the Lori Laughlin scam where the kid has nothing (bad grades, bad test scores, etc) and needs to bribe coaches or school administrators. That’s way harder to pull off (other than at USC, where corruption and scams are part of the culture).
Old 03-14-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Noah930 View Post
....it seems like the sports named were not top tier programs within the athletic department. Though, I'm sure we'd all be surprised that even 2nd tier sports will often have scholarships offered. Nevertheless, my point was that the financial scholarship wasn't the goal--the relaxed admissions standards was.
Rowing Scholarships & Chances of competing in College Rowing

The NCAA has limits on scholarships that can be awarded by sport, by males and females, and what division they compete in. It appears that Div 1 women rowing scholarships are limited to 20, the average team size is 47 women. Most universities handle this by awarding partial scholarships, unless they land a real talent.

BTW, men’s rowing awards ZERO scholarships.

Same thing happens in swimming, women’s teams get 14 scholarships, men get 9.9 per team. Twenty eight swimmers per team.

There are legitimate team members that have no scholarship funding at all. Of course those people still need to be enrolled in school, so some of those athletic departments had enough leeway in what they were allowed to do to get themselves in a lot of trouble.

This black door has probably been used a lot more than just this case.
Old 03-14-2019, 07:32 AM
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A lot of people (social justice warrior types, etc) attack and even want to get rid of the ACT/SAT.
But in actuality they should be strongly favoring it.
While it is not perfect, it is the great equalizer.
The rich and powerful (and others too) can easily cheat and scam the college admissions process. A kid’s entire application can be fabricated and written by someone else.
Except for the ACT/SAT score.
While yes, as we’ve seen that too can be cheated, that is a far more difficult task, involving many other conspirators. And with a few more security policies could be made even more difficult.
Old 03-14-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by onevoice View Post
Rowing Scholarships & Chances of competing in College Rowing

The NCAA has limits on scholarships that can be awarded by sport, by males and females, and what division they compete in. It appears that Div 1 women rowing scholarships are limited to 20, the average team size is 47 women. Most universities handle this by awarding partial scholarships, unless they land a real talent.

BTW, men’s rowing awards ZERO scholarships.

Same thing happens in swimming, women’s teams get 14 scholarships, men get 9.9 per team. Twenty eight swimmers per team.

There are legitimate team members that have no scholarship funding at all. Of course those people still need to be enrolled in school, so some of those athletic departments had enough leeway in what they were allowed to do to get themselves in a lot of trouble.

This black door has probably been used a lot more than just this case.
Most of the very top (ie top 10-12) don’t offer any athletic scholarships to anyone.
Old 03-14-2019, 07:38 AM
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From UCLA's admissions website:

Quote:
While California law prohibits the consideration of an applicant’s race and/or gender in individual admission decisions, the University also has a mandate to reflect the diversity of the state’s population in its student body. Student diversity is a compelling interest at UCLA. It contributes to a rich and stimulating learning environment, one that best prepares leaders-in-the-making for the challenges and opportunities of California, the nation, and beyond.
This is what they claim to use as determining factors for admission:

1. The applicant’s full record of achievement in college preparatory work in high school, including the number and rigor of courses taken and grades earned in those courses.

2. Personal qualities of the applicant, including leadership ability, character, motivation, tenacity, initiative, originality, creativity, intellectual independence, responsibility, insight, maturity, and demonstrated concern for others and for the community.

3.Likely contributions to the intellectual and cultural vitality of the campus. In addition to a broad range of intellectual interests and achievements, consideration will be given to evidence of an applicant’s ability and desire to contribute to a campus that values cultural, socioeconomic, and intellectual diversity.

4. Performance on standardized tests, including the ACT plus Writing or SAT with Essay, and any AP or IBHL examinations the applicant may have taken.
Test scores will be evaluated in the context of all other academic information in the application and preference will be given to tests that show a demonstrable relationship to curriculum and to Academic Senate statements of competencies expected of entering college students. Under no circumstances does UCLA employ minimum scores or "cut-offs" of any kind.

5. Achievement in academic enrichment programs, including, but not limited to, those sponsored by the University of California.

7. Opportunities. All achievements, both academic and non-academic, are considered in the context of the opportunities an applicant has had, and the reader’s assessment is based on how fully the applicant has taken advantage of those opportunities.

8. Challenges. For an applicant who has faced any hardships or unusual circumstances, readers consider the maturity, determination, and insight with which he or she has responded to and/or overcome them.

So they acknowledge that it's illegal to use race or gender as a determining factor, they still do exactly that but call it something else.
Old 03-14-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
Admissions to the very top schools is an interesting process, which I went through with my kids and am glad to be done with.
I traveled the US and met with coaches from Harvard, Yale, Cornell, Williams, Amherst, Brown, Emory and several other top schools. Not for football, basketball or baseball.
It’s an interesting process. For the most part top schools don’t really care too much about sports, but they do care about “development” i.e. potential future donors/donations, i.e. money. So while they do look for good athletes, the kids on many of the teams tend to share very similar, let’s say, family financial and educational backgrounds. They are also, not surprisingly, almost entirely full pay students. That doesn’t happpen by accident.
I found there’s a lot of unwritten and unspoken things involved with the legal “backdoors” or “side doors” to the very top schools. To do it legally takes a pretty good measure of athletic talent and accomplishment, very high academic numbers and a good deal of resources to get it done.
You mention several Ivy League schools and sports in the same response. In all fairness, yes the kids tend to be full-pay students because the Ivy League does not allow for athletic scholarships. At the same time, there are certainly ways kids who come from less financially-advantaged families get some help. They get preferential work-study gigs, either during the school year or during the summer. Tutoring can be supplied gratis. Not that they don't work for their money and grades, but there is someone looking out for them, too, which is nice.
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammyg2 View Post
From UCLA's admissions website:



This is what they claim to use as determining factors for admission:

1. The applicant’s full record of achievement in college preparatory work in high school, including the number and rigor of courses taken and grades earned in those courses.

2. Personal qualities of the applicant, including leadership ability, character, motivation, tenacity, initiative, originality, creativity, intellectual independence, responsibility, insight, maturity, and demonstrated concern for others and for the community.

3.Likely contributions to the intellectual and cultural vitality of the campus. In addition to a broad range of intellectual interests and achievements, consideration will be given to evidence of an applicant’s ability and desire to contribute to a campus that values cultural, socioeconomic, and intellectual diversity.

4. Performance on standardized tests, including the ACT plus Writing or SAT with Essay, and any AP or IBHL examinations the applicant may have taken.
Test scores will be evaluated in the context of all other academic information in the application and preference will be given to tests that show a demonstrable relationship to curriculum and to Academic Senate statements of competencies expected of entering college students. Under no circumstances does UCLA employ minimum scores or "cut-offs" of any kind.

5. Achievement in academic enrichment programs, including, but not limited to, those sponsored by the University of California.

7. Opportunities. All achievements, both academic and non-academic, are considered in the context of the opportunities an applicant has had, and the reader’s assessment is based on how fully the applicant has taken advantage of those opportunities.

8. Challenges. For an applicant who has faced any hardships or unusual circumstances, readers consider the maturity, determination, and insight with which he or she has responded to and/or overcome them.

So they acknowledge that it's illegal to use race or gender as a determining factor, they still do exactly that but call it something else.
Yes, as someone quoted above in this thread, that is the black box that colleges use the code words “holistic admissions” for:

“The days when college admissions was largely a merit-based system disappeared long ago. Now merit merely gets your foot inside an admissions labyrinth with passages marked race, gender, geography, legacy, athletics, sexual identity, trustee relationships, social-justice work and so forth.“

While the UC’s do that to some extent, they do it far less than other schools, since Prop 209 made it illegal for the UC’s to consider race or ethnicity.

So while they do some social engineering like other schools, it is much less and is therefore more academic merit based.

That’s why the UC’s are 40-50% Asian.
Old 03-14-2019, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by plexiform View Post
at least one of the parents was a doctor. he will lose his license if convicted of a felony.
He could lose his license even if he's not convicted of any crime. The medical board can do pretty much whatever it wants to. (Heck, it doesn't even have to follow its own rules and regulations. Who's gonna call the Board out on that?)

But Medical Boards are usually a bit cowardly, so they often wait to see what legalities shake out, and then base their decision on those outcomes.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by McLovin View Post

That’s why the UC’s are 40-50% Asian.
Some old jokes:
UCLA: University of Causasians Lost amongst Asians
UC Irvine: University of Chinese Immigrants
UC Berkeley: University of Chinese Brethren
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by pavulon View Post
I'm not tracking here. Are you saying that buying a way into a university because your parents have means makes it all good and that people just need to cope?
Private institutions can admit whoever they like by whatever criteria they like.

This is a case of outright fraud and is unrelated.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by brshap View Post
Private institutions can admit whoever they like by whatever criteria they like.
.
Of course that’s not true.
Old 03-14-2019, 08:14 AM
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The real idiocy, other than the snobbery aspect of it all, is that most of these "big name" schools don't mean squat in the real world. Coming out of college as an aerospace engineer, I was offered the same money as a fresh MIT grad with a great GPA because I had two years experience as an intern. It's why my kids will go to in-state schools and preferably two years of community college, barring an incredible scholarship offer of some kind.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:18 AM
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There’s certainly a lot of truth to that, but it’s particularly true for the kids of the families involved in this bust.
Old 03-14-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
Of course that’s not true.
Obviously outside of illegal discrimination, whats stopping them?
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by legion View Post
My alma mater has torn down dorms to build a new student rec center and other such amenities. This has also pushed students into the hands of local college slum lords who charge more for a month's rent than I pay monthly for my mortgage (and I only live 2 miles from my alma mater).
Those students could rent rooms in houses instead.
-My own first non-shared tiny studio apartment with problems was at the young age of 30.
-Good times or bad I usually saved and paid my way.

Or they could live in cheaper places and suffer the daily commute just like you.
-There was a reason all freeways going into San Francisco were log jams during rush hour and the ones going out were empty.
-Except the world is a golden oyster waiting on bended knee for them.

Why should the rest of us have to suffer on behalf of others who don't care, or won't care, or need a different situation instead of first class?
Old 03-14-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by madcorgi View Post
I do know that the pressure placed on the kids--particularly the Asians--is high, and ever increasing. Apparently some rich white folks prefer to pay bribes directly so the little dears glide through life and pass along their parents' ****ty genes to the next generation.
Are you white?
Old 03-14-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy View Post
The real idiocy, other than the snobbery aspect of it all, is that most of these "big name" schools don't mean squat in the real world. Coming out of college as an aerospace engineer, I was offered the same money as a fresh MIT grad with a great GPA because I had two years experience as an intern. It's why my kids will go to in-state schools and preferably two years of community college, barring an incredible scholarship offer of some kind.
I would think with the advent of online courses and degrees the whole higher education "industry" will see a huge transition away from the norm, similar to what has happened in media and the way we watch movies and television.
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