Again, asking for advice from the brain trust
 

I have my own ideas about these problems, but I am constantly amazed by the creativity of the PPOT brain trust, so I'm throwing these out there for comment.

MrsWD dragged home these two windows from somewhere. They are mildly curved (about a 3" bow). They are about 34x34 inches with 25 panes of beveled glass in each window. As you can see from the photos, the paint is in bad shape. What would be the best way to remove and restore the paint? Heat is fast and clean, but I'm afraid of cracking some of those pieces of beveled glass. Is chemical stripping the best option?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1555286388.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1555286388.jpg

MrsWD wants to turn an area in front of our house into a flower garden. There is a DSL line buried in the area she wants me to dig up. Fine, I've located and exposed the wire, but after I'm done, what product is available to protect the wire so she doesn't cut it 2 years from now while planting some Creeping Charlie or whatever? The depth of the wire varies from 2 to 6 inches and it zigs and zags all over the place.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1555286587.jpg

That paint looks old and thick and old. I'd say chemical. Can you see the condition of the wood?


As for the wire, can you excavate the wire and put into a conduit of some sort? Maybe PVC?

I am doing something similar to the wire. I trenched a gas line from my house to my shop last fall and forgot to run a cat 5 cable (it is a steel building so the wireless repeater is sub par). Since the soil in the trench has settled 4-6”, in going to run the cat 5. My electrician neighbor gave me enough wire to run 2 in case one gets buggered up. Your should run a spare cable too.

Electric heat won't break the glass. You could overheat the glass using a torch (much faster). The reason glass breaks is a 'sudden' change of temp.

Whenever I install low voltage cable and I know it's in an area of potential damage, I slip it inside a section of schedule 40 PVC. Now the gray conduit (for electric) is schedule 80 - so that would be even better.

Sorry - no idea on the windows.

The windows are very old. They could easily be 100 or so, but they might be from the 1930s. They come from a time when windows were all made with all wood and small glass was cheaper to manufacture than big sheets of glass. That’s why you have so many individual panes. They’re called divided lights. These days large sheets of glass are cheap to manufacture but the labor to install small panes is expensive, so true divided light windows are expensive. Most divided light windows these days have interior frames pressed into the glass to make a “simulated” divided light.

So much for the history lesson. The point is that there Are layers upon layers of lead paint on those windows. The glass will be regular old fashioned glass. No tinting, low-e, double panes, tempting, etc. old fashioned window glass like we grew up with. It might break easily but it shouldn’t be too hard to replace the individual lights.

The problem is the wood. If any substantial part of the frame is rotten it’s going to be hard to repair without simply rebuilding another frame, complete with individual lights, and you reuse the old glass.

Sounds like a neat project. Let us know how you make out.

^^
Thanks for the history lesson.
Whatever it gets used for will be decorative. The wood is OK - not good for an exterior window but good enough for her art project.

The wooden frames with the glass are going to be a headache to deal with. You can
strip the paint off the frames but the glass is held in with the old style putty. That putty
is long past its functional use. It has dried out and cracked to the extent that it will start
flaking away from the frame. I do custom leaded glass for a living and when I get called
in to repair broken glass in a leaded window, the repair can be dealt with. The pain in the
you know what is removing the existing putty that holds the window into those old style
frames and then re puttying it back in. If you can chip the putty out to remove the beveled
glass pieces they could be re used and leaded together to make a real window. You will spend more time trying to re furbish that frame than it is worth. Trust me on that. The bevels
look like they have a steep bevel angle. That is what makes them look great. Most of the new
bevels that come out of China and Korea are on thinner glass with a shallow bevel angle.
They are beveled but have no sparkle or prism effect. Cheap crap!!

I was going to respond with “Paging Zeke/Milt!!!” But he’s already chimed in. I suspect he’s forgotten more about this sort of work than the rest of us have ever known.

I’d put the wire in conduit or flexible conduit. That’s the best way to make sure that someone doesn’t stick a shovel through it that I can think of. You could probably also use PVC pipe with a slot cut in it on the underside.

A detail of one of my windows, This is how they are supposed to look.
 

That is gorgeous! No way we are looking for anything like that.

Appreciate the kind words! You might be surprised by how nice the bevels in your
existing wood frames clean up. What is taking away from them is the frame and built
up grime and film in the glass. Clean them up and you might revive the sparkle in
them. Like I said, they appear to have a steep bevel angle and that is what makes
the prism effect and sparkle happen.

If you haven’t had too much of a history lesson, that slight curve you mentioned is hard to do. It must have been custom built for its opening back in the day when all windows were made for the house and before there were standard sizes. They would have been expensive for their time and must have been in a very nice house. That’s why they’ve been kept for so long. They’ll look great in your wife’s project once you get them cleaned up.

NO HEAT! Tried it with a heat gun and a scraper, with unfortunate results.

Can you find a place that will dip it? Spend a hundred bucks on the dip instead of new glass and heartache.

I can safely assume that the window will be painted again after the gunk comes off? What will be used for? An art piece for the garden?

From my previous life, when I was doing a bunch of restoration, this product was my friend. It can be shaped, sand, paint, stain, and depending on which product line you chose, its even structural. Let me introduce to you, my old friend, Abatron. https://www.abatron.com/product-category/wood-restoration-maintenance/ if wood has rotten away or need to add a chunk that's missing. This stuff aint no Bondo like some people think. Its not cheap. Amazon may carry it?

The US forestry uses it on repairs in their remote structures way out in the sticks. I uses it on my parent's 1929 Spanish to repair some of the structural pieces under the house because I was too lazy, and too costly to tear the house apart. Its been 10 years and it hasn't changed still solid as a rock.

Yep, Gogar is right, I would have it dipped.

One side of the opening where each of the individual glass bevels fit in is part
of the wood frame,usually routed. the other side is where the glass is set in.
that side has the glazing putty against the glass to secure the glass into the
frame. Even if you strip the frame by sanding or another method you will find
the glazing putty will start to flake out of the frame. The cracking on the putty
is where it is worn out and failing. If the frame was taken down to raw wood
a oscillating tool can be used to remove the putty around each bevel piece.
You can then use a modern caulk or small 1/4 round trim around each piece
if there is room. Either way it is a ton of work. That is why nobody has tackled
it before as well as why windows like this end up in salvage yards or garage
sales for cheap.

If you have the patient and want to come to LA, there's a ton of work doing just that, restoring old window that's are falling apart. I know a guy name Kevin K. He's has that market cornered because he calls himself something like old window doc and its on some type of historical reg. Just another young guy with lots of patient that know how to market to hipsters. I have seen his stuff. Windows that really should not go back into the frame get repaired with some glue or dowels, plug the holes and remove the putty, smear new and paint. He's able to make a damn good living doing it. My neighbor had it done. Within two years, the window sagged again. I finally got them some wooden windows. Issues went away for good. He charged them 400 bucks per window. If you count up all the windows, that's a lot of money.

On the frames, repair rot with bondo. Really. I've done it to outstanding results. A bonus is the heat kills the fungus.

For the buried DSL line, you can buy a pvc sleeve with a slit in it to slide over the line. Since you'll probably end up replacing the glazing on those windows, chemical paint remover.

I believe chemically stripping is your best bet , due to the age of the windows be careful it may be lead based paint . I believe " aircraft stripper " is still considered some of the strongest available over the counter . It has a nasty smell to it but it works . You will probably have to attack this in multiple coats . First coat put it on heavy , let it do its thing in a shaded area and then scrape with metal putty knife or scraper . Second coat you might get by with coarse steel wool as your scraper . At this point you can " spot strip " areas that are stubborn . At some point you will say " that looks good enough " and then you can start sanding .

If you also plan to R&R the glazing that would be next to tackle . As mentioned earlier electric heat is the way to go but you still have to be extra careful . Try to direct the heat to aprox. 1/2 the height of the glazing and up so more towards to wood frame . You will quickly get a feel for how long to hold the heat and then scrape with metal putty knife . You should uncover some type of push points that are holding the glass in , they can be stiff triangular wires or flat sheet style . I would NOT bother with those , if they are holding the glass in just re-glaze . Good luck with the project .

This is the key statement, IMO^^, and should determine how extensive your efforts should be.

If she wants the "vintage" look, then leaving the glazing in it's cracked/brittle state may be appropriate and will save considerable time and effort. Lightly scraping the frame with an application of heat can get rid of the loose, peeling, flaking paint and leave a paint stained/streaked frame that is smooth.

If she wants a more updated look but still not to be used outdoors, then you're facing much more labor and I would suggest, removing the panes and have the frame dipped. It will be enough of an effort to simply remove all those panes. Some of that old glazing will pop right out, but there will always be a portion of each pane frame that the putty is rock-solid and refuses to budge without the use of heat.

In short, get a clear picture of her finished project before committing to any of the methods mentioned. And don't forget to protect yourself from lead!

I've got a feeling these are going to be stored for a few years, moved from place to place to get them out of the way a few dozen times, and then they'll end up in a garage sale for cheap. I already have plenty of projects and I sure as heck don't have the time or the desire to strip them down. I don't think MrsWD has time to do it either. I don't think this was a wise purchase.
Ossi, it's good advice to get an idea what her final plans for those windows are before doing anything to them. I'll tell her to think long and hard about what she ultimately wants to do with them.

I've got some 1/2 PVC conduit laying around here someplace. I'll try ripping a slot in it with my 4" grinder. If that doesn't work I'll just lay a 1x4 on top of it before I rebury it. I've got engines to build and cars to drive!

To protect the DSL cable - can't you just use some plastic cabling loom product like you can purchase at your FLAPS? It may not protect against a shovel at full force - but if Mrs WD typically uses small hand tools it would work fine.

The other option with the 1/2 PVC conduit - if you've got a table saw, just set the fence over 1/4" from the blade and lower the blade to cut through the bottom surface only. It will make very quick work of cutting a slot the full length of the conduit. (BTDT!)

This page shows some interesting window glazing putty removal aids. I had one years ago that was a simple heating coil strung along an edge of a hand held tool that could also be left in place on the glass pane to heat the next section of putty while you scraped out the previous one.

I couldn't find a pic of the thing anywhere so it must be obsolete.

Heating with electric is much safer on all fronts. If lead is present you aren't apt to heat it to the point that smoke is rising from your work. Best to do this outside with appropriate PPE.

Repairing old wood sash with bondo is legitimate but the soft wood must be consolidated first.

Weird

I’m reading regulations concerning underground utilities right now.

I would drop that into a deeper trench ( I cant tell how deep that is now from the pic)
And put it into a pipe. Then fill the trench with gravel partially as a visual cue you’re “getting close” in future excavations.

You can absolutely break glass w a heat gun, I've done it more times than I can count removing glazing compound from the thousands of old windows I've restored. This was my life for more years than I'd like to think about, doing restoration paint and finish work on old houses and buildings and specializing in windows.

If you are only removing paint and not compound, (what someone else is calling putty), it's easy to not break glass if you know what you're doing and have the right tools. The problem is that old windows almost always need to be re-glazed which requires removing all old compound to do it well.

The good news is that the glazing compound or putty looks fine in the close-up photo in OP, only the paint on the compound is peeling. That is easier to deal with.

Heat is the only realistic way to remove old finishes in most situations and it works great but requires some knowledge and skill to do it without causing damage. You also cannot dip that window in harsh chemicals w/o removing the glass first, how are you going to do that? There are times when dipping something is the right move, this isn't one of them.

Removing glazing compound that is strong w/o hating the glass to the point of cracking is nearly impossible. Weak compound is another story, normally you do not attempt to remove strong compound unless you are replacing a broken pane of glass and then, who cares if it breaks more? Removing old finishes w a heat gun is a snap but you need certain accessories to work around glass or anything else you do not wish to heat up. Propane torches are great as well for larger jobs that will be repainted, obviously no good where any type of clear or semi-transparent finish will be used.

This probably TMI but I could go on for pages on this subject. It is a dying sub-speciality within the refinishing trade that almost no one does well because smart tradesmen are not interested in restoration projects. Almost no one even knows how to correctly re-glaze windows without missing the internal line for the glass edge, which every worker w a pulse knew how to do in 1935.

Here is an example of the accessories needed for working around glass w a heat gun, the regular spreader nozzle is missing because it's on one of my guns:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1555349430.jpg

I have never broken a pane of glass with electric heat. I've nicked a few panes with metal tools and started a runner which, of course, required replacement.

In my painting days (started on the Queen Mary as a union painter during its restoration) I removed a lot of glass. On one Craftsman 2-story bungalow that I restored in 1976 I moved several large panes from the upper rear to the front at the porch because some of the original wavy glass had been replaced by float glass. You could see this from the street so it didn't play well. I still keep a stash of old glass on hand. It's getting harder to find.

On that job I used an acetylene torch — the kind that mixes with air, not oxygen. I used a piece of sheet metal to shield the glass from direct heat. If there is already a buried nick at the edge of the glass, you're fooked as it will run as soon as you disturb it.

"Putty" is a generalized term that everyone understands. Some suppliers call it putty.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/...webp_QL65_.jpg

That stuff is gray and dries hard as nails, but it's the one to use on metal sash.

IDK how long anyone here has been painting but if you count the years before I became union, I've been at it for 53 years. In one ten year stretch that's all I did — paint. Had a crew and 2 trucks. It's like riding a bike, you don't forget how even if you don't pick up a brush for months (never happened to me, I'm always painting something).

I agree, you don't forget how to paint and prep stuff for refinishing. As for using heat, it's all in knowing what you're doing. I just took this photo an hour ago at my favored tint shop, (2 blocks from my door), a guy using a MAP torch on the glass of a brand new BMW X3 to dry it. :eek:

They do this everyday. Don't try it at home. :)



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1555361077.jpg

Hire a stripper! :D

Ha! That’s one job MrsWD could do herself. The girl can dance.
I’ve exposed the entire cable and after looking at it I have a new plan.
Update tomorrow.

Hold on there cowboy!! I work on a need to know basis and I don't need to know :eek:

couple things come to mind. as noted there is more lead in that paint than in your pencil sir! I would expect heating it for removal would only increase the opportunity for you to get polluted by it vap mask usage considered. additionally the layers of paint may very well what's keeping the them upright. if the paint is removed entirely they may become pick up sticks with glass between them. it's yard art, or in this case a hot house, let that sleeping dog lay and install as is


regarding the wire. you can get wall mount exterior two piece conduits for garage usage and such in stainless or a PVE type material. you run the wire through it, snap the two pieces together so no cutting or splicing of the wire is required. then set it in the trench surrounding it with as cliff suggests above an import backfill. you can use sand or pea gravel both under and over the conduit so it never sits in in water at the bottom of the trench and over it a few inches tells someone digging to look closer. the beauty of an import backfill like pea gravel it's noticeable and easily moved around to locate the utility when encounter.

this old house

I learn a lot from you guys....stuff I have no clue about....

I do think using a stripper with chemicals is worthy of pics though :)!

One can only wonder.

So, I got the whole wire uncovered and took a good look at the situation. There is enough wire to tuck behind the pins and under the edge of the paver retainer. It's not perfect, but it's not very likely anyone is going to be digging that close to the retainer with anything that will cut the wire.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1555562025.JPG

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1555562025.jpg


I asked MrsWD what she ultimately wants to do with the windows. Turn out she just wants the glass.
"What are you going to do with 50 little pieces of beveled glass?"
She just smiled.

You might end up kicking yourself for that at some point if your retainer is anything like mine. I have to re plant my retainer almost every spring due to heaving over winter.