J&J Opioid Judgement- Oklahoma

[Chocaholic]

$570M. Of course they’ll appeal. Gutsy move to go to trial as most other suits are settled quietly. Assuming the judgement stands, will J&J pay or will drug prices simply be raised to cover the cost? Will 49 other states get in line to follow Oklahoma’s lead?

In other words, is this a fine against J&J or against all people who depend on their products?

[flatbutt]

and yet J&J stock is holding.

[Sooner or later]

Stock is holding because the settlement amount was lower than expected.

Rumblings around here is that the state might appeal because of the small settlement amount.

The following is one attorney's thoughts from an Oklahoma message board.

have not read the order or the law cited. However, I suspect that the state will seriously consider appealing the amount if they believe they could have gotten more. There are three options on appeal. First, it can be affirmed. Then the state gets the money (unless there are questions of federal law or U.S. Constitutional law and P&G does a Writ of Certiorari to the U.S. Supreme Court on just those issues). Second, the state could lose altogether and in that case they get nothing. Third, it could be remanded for a new trial if there was reversible error. In any scenario, the state would have nothing to lose by appealing the judgment amount. If they win on the original judgment, then they've either lost nothing or it is remanded for a reconsideration of damages. If they lose on the original judgment, they lose only what they would have lost anyway. If it is remanded for a new trial, they will have lost nothing because there will be a new trial. Seems like a slam dunk decision to me.

[Sooner or later]

They may have a hard time raising prices to pay for settlements.

Their name has been harmed. They are also getting hammered over their baby powder. Some consumers will be turned off. Competition will most likely keep them in line.

[legion]

This is one of those problems that government created, private industry exploited, then government blamed private industry for when it became public.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Assuming the judgement stands, will J&J pay or will drug prices simply be raised to cover the cost? Will 49 other states get in line to follow Oklahoma’s lead?
In other words, is this a fine against J&J or against all people who depend on their products?

Other states are already seeking judgements again drug marketers. I don't see why the price of drugs will go up unless J&J is under pricing its drugs now.

[Rick Lee]

I just don't get this stuff. Was J&J giving out free samples? If not, how did the drugs get to the consumers? AFAIK, the doctor writes the script, faxes it to the pharmacy, who fills it and the patient picks it up. If pharmacies see an uptick in demand, they order more product. How is the uptick in demand J&J's doing?

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I just don't get this stuff. Was J&J giving out free samples? If not, how did the drugs get to the consumers? AFAIK, the doctor writes the script, faxes it to the pharmacy, who fills it and the patient picks it up. If pharmacies see an uptick in demand, they order more product. How is the uptick in demand J&J's doing?

They knowingly and willingly misled about risk addiction. Their sales force didn't release that information because it would harm sales.

[sammyg2]

Maybe J&J will have to go away completely and stop making all that stuff that improves and saves so many lives.

That'll teach those bastsages!

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I just don't get this stuff. Was J&J giving out free samples? If not, how did the drugs get to the consumers? AFAIK, the doctor writes the script, faxes it to the pharmacy, who fills it and the patient picks it up. If pharmacies see an uptick in demand, they order more product. How is the uptick in demand J&J's doing?

just a knee-jerk reaction to blame "big pharm".

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Maybe J&J will have to go away completely and stop making all that stuff that improves and saves so many lives.

That'll teach those bastsages!

They were not truthful about their product safety. They knew about the risk of addiction and they tried to bury that information so they could increase sales.

[Hugh R]

So most doctors, pharmacists and patients didn't know that opioids are addictive and J&J misled them?

[cstreit]

As I understand it, some of the prosecuting attorneys are pushing for trial and not accepting settlement so that this can be brought to light of day. If they pay out of court, everything gets sealed up and no one is the wiser.

[biosurfer1]

So $572 mil fine for a company that made over $80 Billion.

A bit like if you make $100,000/year being fined $700. If I was fined $700 for doing something that helped me make $100,000...not sure it would change my approach??

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

So most doctors, pharmacists and patients didn't know that opioids are addictive and J&J misled them?

Extent and ease of addiction was minimized.

[biosurfer1]

Originally Posted by cstreit

As I understand it, some of the prosecuting attorneys are pushing for trial and not accepting settlement so that this can be brought to light of day. If they pay out of court, everything gets sealed up and no one is the wiser.

Wasn't this a judges ruling, not a settlement??

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

Wasn't this a judges ruling, not a settlement??

This was a judge's ruling, not a settlement. It's a big deal, not because of the amount, but because of the public nuisance finding, which opens the door to a lot of similar litigation.

What people often don't appreciate about judgments like this is that they are only the tip of the iceberg as to what costs the company will actually incur. They have already spent a fortune on fees, and will continue to do so as the case progresses. If any portion of their costs have been paid by insurance, that will go sky high. Disruption to the normal course of business is horrendously expensive, as is taking actions to ensure no further liability, assess liability in other states, create remediation planes, etc. Employee morale and productivity suffers, as does reputation, the ability to hire new employees, etc. These costs, while hard to quantify, exact a huge toll n cases like this.

Since both sides are unhappy with the judgment, it's possible they will both appeal (called a cross-appeal), but I suspect they are already in talks to settle, which can be done at ay time in the process. Oklahoma likes the precedent, and does not want to see it overturned on appeal. J&J hates the precedent, and does not want to risk having it affirmed by the higher court. A settlement removes that possibility.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

Extent and ease of addiction was minimized.

I don't buy this completely. I can imagine a sales rep doing that but I didn't hear of any evidence presented as such. If there is culpable behavior in that claim then FDA must share in it. FDA didn't require Black Box warnings on opioids until 2016 and even with that most people don't read the warning.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

They knowingly and willingly misled about risk addiction. Their sales force didn't release that information because it would harm sales.

Reminds me of the scam artists who sued tobacco companies because they didn't communicate the hazards of smoking, even though cigarettes were widely known as coffin nails and cancer sticks as far back as world war frigging one.
Everyone in the whole world knew cigarettes were bad for you, except that tools who brought the lawsuits.

Just like everyone in the whole world knows that opiates are addictive.
Oh, except that guy. And that one. And her too. The ones standing next to their ambulance chasers.

And I need this chair, and that ashtray. And that's all I need.

There is a really good description of how the Sacklers (owners of Purdue Pharma) used the marketing prowess gained from introducing valium to the market in the 1950s to push oxycontin later in this article: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/30/the-family-that-built-an-empire-of-pain.

They marketed oxy as revolutionary, non-addictive alternative to normal opiate delivery systems, then lied and covered up the fact that their assurances to doctors were wrong. They also had an amazing amount of luck co-opting docs to push oxy to colleagues. Nothing like an all-expenses paid "speaking engagement" in Hawaii for a week to spread the word to colleagues. Plus a couple grand in cash as the "honorarium." Oh--and quite often , the "speaking" part of the deal got canceled, but they were very generous and never asked for the money back when that happened.

Big pharma is just as crooked as big oil or the MIL.